Domination of Barbarians [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[Spain (DoB)]

Sommerswerd,

I think these kind of things should be discussed with players.
It's good you are GM, but you are also in the game..
so let people have their say about how crucial things are handled.

I hope France and Byzantine are given a chance to have their say. And that we then discuss things and then decide.

Furthermore you still haven't informed us which country is taking over Germany.
People need to know, as it will affect game strategy.

I propose we pause the game until all this is handled.
Both France and Byzantine are major players, and it would be a real shame to see them go.

[England (DoB)]

So with France and Byzantine both resigning, I am asking for anyone willing to sub for either to PM me. If no one is willing to sub then I guess we will have to put them to AI so that the game can continue. I will be home to reload the game in a few hours... Probably 4 or so hours.

This is lame - I will miss our kulturkampf cold war France. Can we all go Cold Turkey for a bit figure this out.

France/Byzantium, could you share your grievances?

For game play I think we all would much rather keep France/Byzantium in the game and turn Germany over to the AI. If the concern is that people will unfairly cannibalize Germany, it will be even worse with France/Byzantium having withdrawn.

[Arabia (DoB)]

Sommerswerd,

I think these kind of things should be discussed with players.
It's good you are GM, but you are also in the game..
so let people have their say about how crucial things are handled.

I hope France and Byzantine are given a chance to have their say. And that we then discuss things and then decide.

Furthermore you still haven't informed us which country is taking over Germany.
People need to know, as it will affect game strategy.

I propose we pause the game until all this is handled.
Both France and Byzantine are major players, and it would be a real shame to see them go.

To this point, if there are more than one Civ being played by one player in this game I think that should be public knowledge as well. If it's temporary and short term then maybe this is not necessary IMO, but if it's been over 10 - 20 turns, as an example, it's seems a bit unfair for the other players otherwise. There can be many advantages had by playing two Civs in the game no matter how politically disparate they might be within the game.

I am making some assumptions here so please forgive me if this is the case already. But there should be a time limit for someone playing two Civs at the same time, at which time if a replacement isn't found the Civ is turned over to AI.

That being said, if this is the case and no one is playing 2 or more civs for a significant period of time (say less then 20 turns), then I trust Sommers to handle the behind the scenes and not give Germany for France or Nether to play in the interim.

The obvious problem with this is that if a few Civs are turned over to AI, after no subs have been found, that gives a distinct advantage to the AI's neighbours as free fodder for expansion since they are the only Civs not protected by Measured War and the only ones that can be eliminated.... That's a tasty snack for any player, and I am sure the AI wouldn't be around for long as it is cannibalized by its neighbours.

Tough decisions to be made here.

Perhaps in this case, the AI should have some type of war protection as well to keep the game balanced as best as possible? Just a thought.

[Ottomans (DoB)]

Can we all go Cold Turkey for a bit figure this out.

France/Byzantium, could you share your grievances?

For game play I think we all would much rather keep France/Byzantium in the game and turn Germany over to the AI. If the concern is that people will unfairly cannibalize Germany, it will be even worse with France/Byzantium having withdrawn.

Yes - more CTT is in order IMHO.

In my view, losing Germany would have probably brought some form of balance to the 'crush' that was central Europe. And as the sub had to use this thread to get in the minimum number of posts to start posting, it is clear that the previous German player was not particularly active diplo wise - at least publicly.

But I also acknowledge Arabia's point that it clearly favors Germany neighbors, as they get to carve up the land.

But hey - maybe that is just the evolution of a diplo game. Civilization's got erased historically, and the world moved on. So can we.

[England (DoB)]

Agree with Ottomans, but dividing up German land is tricky. Would it be practical to raze Munich/Berlin - divide the gold spoils equally and then let other nations rebuild cities? Will remove the "unfair" aspect of people getting fully developed cities. If it is possible to fit 3 cities in German land, that would be ideal as it would allow Nether, HRE and Russia to get city sites - which I think would be fair as they are the bordering nations. Otherwise Nether getting the Berlin site and HRE the Munich site probably makes sense since Russia will get the benefit of razing cities on its other borders that are boxing it in. Just throwing out ideas to see what sticks.

[China (DoB)]

Yikes ! Came to play my turn this eveing and all hell has broken out since this morning. So whats the objection with the reload ? ... Two players resigning seems a bit extreme especially two key civs. I suggest a suspension of the game until further notice with the opporunity to make amends. If it simply is not reloading I have no objection to reverting to post Germany resigning. Everyone take a breather and think about this. This seems like the game is collapsing.

[Sommerswerd]

Thanks to everyone who has posted about this, and a special thanks to everyone who has volunteered to sub. Listening to all the thoughts and based on the loss of key players due to my exuberance to hurry up and get the game re-started, I agree that a couple days of discussion is a good idea. I will just listen to what everyone has to say, read and take suggestions... Which is probably what I should have done in the first place...

Hopefully we can get all this resolved and re-start the game with a solution that most of us if not everyone agrees with. In the meantime, I have taken the game down for our CTT discussion. Thanks again everyone for your patience.

[Ottomans (DoB)]

I'm baaaaaaack!

[England (DoB)]

Another idea, just floating it to see if it has any legs.

If people turn over their civ to the AI the cities of the nation that withdrew could--in perpetuity--no longer have the same rules of war apply to them. My thinking is that no matter what nation ends up capturing these cities any other nation will always be able to later capture the city without the normal war rules requiring a city to be exchanged in compensation. Since these are very high quality and built up cities there should be a lot of competition to try and claim them. My thinking is that with such a change to the rules this competition can be encouraged rather than locking up the cities for the 1st nation lucky enough to capture them. Of course if the city was razed and rebuilt, normal war rules would apply, but then you would give up a highly developed city and have to start from scratch.

Anyhow I think this sort of an idea could make the game a lot more fun if we really do have France, Byzantine, and Germany dropping out. Will open up a large swath of territory for long term competition/conflict and with some extremely valuable cites I doubt folks will raze them. Would also allow the cities just to remain AIs without the need for subs.

[Germany (DoB)]

^^^^^^^

[Greece (DoB)]

Yes i agree we need France and Byzantine back, let Germany go AI and have the smaller civs around get their cities.

[France (DoB)]

Since the game has been suspended to address my resignation, I am assuming the related rule about not posting comments when you leave the game is waived in this instance. If not then please delete this post.

I left the game due to an accumulation of events, not just the most recent reload. My reasons were:

1) I am uncomfortable having an unaccountable GM, who is also playing the game, with the power to waive existing rules, add new rules as they desire and to assign substitutes to civs as they see fit.

2) In this particular case, it was the reload back to an earlier point in the game that was my main issue. The rules state that reloads will only be done as a last resort because they affect everyone and there was no real reason for this reload and everything that was undone could have easily been undone in the game without the reload. There have been other cases that were far more undoable where a reload was not agreed to, even though in at least one case the issue was related to the game being unreachable by some players. This reload benefitted a very specific group of civs.

3) In my opinion, the rule changes that have occurred have consistently benefitted certain civs and have been biased.

Note: I did not leave the game due to a sub playing Germany.

[Ottomans (DoB)]

Since the game has been suspended to address my resignation, I am assuming the related rule about not posting comments when you leave the game is waived in this instance. If not then please delete this post.

I for one welcome your comments to try and figure out what happened.

I left the game due to an accumulation of events, not just the most recent reload. My reasons were:

1) I am uncomfortable having an unaccountable GM, who is also playing the game, with the power to waive existing rules, add new rules as they desire and to assign substitutes to civs as they see fit.

Presonally, I am OK with Sommers being GM and playing as well. He knows what he is doing (for the most part ), has done a really good job to-date, IMO, and is willing to take a smack up the side of the head if need be. I understand the gray areas you are talking about, but to-date, they have not affected me.

2) In this particular case, it was the reload back to an earlier point in the game that was my main issue. The rules state that reloads will only be done as a last resort because they affect everyone and there was no real reason for this reload and everything that was undone could have easily been undone in the game without the reload. There have been other cases that were far more undoable where a reload was not agreed to, even though in at least one case the issue was related to the game being unreachable by some players. This reload benefitted a very specific group of civs.

I agree. I was unclear why the reload was needed. I thought we were just going to drop in a sub and get on with it.

3) In my opinion, the rule changes that have occurred have consistently benefitted certain civs and have been biased.

Can't really comment on this.

Note: I did not leave the game due to a sub playing Germany.

Understood.

And a final comment, would hate to see you leave the game. France has been a focal point of so much that has happened in the world. I thought you were playing a great game.

[Vikings (DoB)]

Reloads should not happen unless players agree to it.

Also, regarding the subbing issue, the Vikings were played by another civ for some time, is this common knowledge?

[England (DoB)]

Thanks for laying that out France. Sounds like it should not be too difficult to get you back in the game.

I had assumed the relaod was needed due to Nether capturing (razing?) Berlin. Based that assumption off other posts though and did not see this in game or anything. Anyhow, I would have thought the reload would have, if anything, helped you out France by keeping Germany in the game as you had also indicated concern about Nether contorting Germany. Anyhow, think we are all a bit confused.

Any word from Byzantium? Were there other game issues some of us don't know about taking place in that part of the world?

Lastly, I trust sommers a lot not to abuse his position as GM, but more transparency here might be a good thing.