Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[The Priest]

But still - you taking the Neandors is absolutely real proposal - you play in the DoF, right? So I guess your RL problems, which took you away from Civ are gone - why dont you sub the Neandors and help giving a great game the finish she deserves?

Its a tempting offer but I don't think I can. My rl situation mean I have to serverly limit how much time I spend on civ, and a game involving storying is much more demanding than Dof. And of course I am in DoF so it would mean taking on a second game. Also, I have to say watching DoE the last month or so has made me glad not to be in it, so many reloads and arguments.

It is tempting but ... my guess is it isn't going to finish quickly or easily, so I don't think I can. Sorry :-(

[Russia (DoE)]

Sigh... Too bad - I had vested much hope in you

And it is not true about the reloads - it was 1 reload in the last month. The game was just unreachable - no one is insured against technical problems - and then the Ai double-moved the Indians. It may sound weird, but it was the reason the game to be reloaded.

Dont forget the game stayed paused about 2-3 weeks when you took Venetii. So this 1 day-a-month reload was nothing special.

BTW, mentioning Venetii - what happened back then? Why you were so afraid of the Neandors a bit later? - I though you were allies with them? I said to myself - man, I am fried meat - Neandor, France and the Turks are in alliance and the Neandors are hating me...

And what happened with Arabia? I heard you two were allies too - this time specially against me? What was the deal there?

[Russia (DoE)]

a game involving storying is much more demanding than Dof

Not true. I mean - Neandor was not posting stories anyway, so it will be OK if you dont post too - that will be no change for bad. But if you take the position and play it strong as you can, this can make for a great finish of this great game. Great fun for you too controlling the world biggest army in an upcoming WW2. (Or not much fun if you dont like much being kicked in the a$$ )

[The Priest]

Maybe you are true about the reloads, or maybe it wasn't just this last month. Or maybe it was all the pauses. Perhaps I can be persuaded, but does the game really have a future?

And hey, don't believe the propaganda. I didn't take Venetii at all! Neandor felt so bad about all the accuasions that he broke off the treaty with me (by which I would have gained Venetii if i remember right) and simply squared a compromise with France. It was Neandor which too it, and choked me just like France had been threatening to, though neador had the strength to defend it.

Back then, if I remember right, I wasn't so much afraid of the Neandor, I was just desparate for land. Boxed in on ever side. France and Neador expanding east, Egypt rebranding itself as Israel and expanding north. No ocean so no chance of doing a Viking or England and building colonies. So I felt I had to take an aggressive stance against the chokes, and I went for and got the sistine chapel to protect my limited land.

So yes I tried to work with Neandor very early on aginst French choking (Veneti secured the whole of italy for france), but they abandoned our treaty. No hard feelings for them because of that because the OCC stuff was tricky. But generally I never find myself having good alliances with neighbours - too much competition - my allies are always my neighbours neighbours! So never alliances with Neandor - which was why, if i remember right, we worked together both feeling theatened by them (since it was obvious that they too were squahsed for space and so were likely to try to find living space in the east).

Arabia. No never an ally. They stole land from me early on in the east and I was intending on taking it back when i left the game. I think Egypt early on experienced it as alliance against him because both Ottomans and Arabia were 'serverely challenged' by Egypt's rebranding itself as Israel and trying to plant its second city as a culture monster in Jersualem, pushign its borders far into our areas. But Arabia and I never got on, just for a moment we were both anti israel. Maybe they or others tried to tell you arabia and I were against you, to keep you feeling threatened in your south, or maybe i have forgotten some devious plan.

Thats how i remember it, but it was a long time ago!

[Russia (DoE)]

Perhaps I can be persuaded, but does the game really have a future?

All but Neandor have players right now and without a proper player for the Neandors, the game is not worth, so at least in this regard - yes, the game is fully playable.

Do people can have fun playing the game forward? Yes, I am sure they can. Do the Axis have chances in a war with our alliance? Sure, it all depends on how you all play it.

To add to this, I had proposed a 30 turns peace, so diplomacy can be rearranged and renegotiated. Which can prove really problematic for me, as after all those accusations of being overpowered, manipulator, and so on and so on, now everyone will feel the urge to demonize and betray me to be in accordance with the leading diplomatic fashion of bashing Russia

[Calanthian]

Well after a lot of hesitation, I am prepared to take Neandor..
(even if that means I could get kicked around a second time)..

Russia (DoE) and me made a package deal concerning WPC/G&H and DoE with the result that both games get going again..

[OzzyKP]

Fantastic news.

[Vikings (DoE)]

Well after a lot of hesitation, I am prepared to take Neandor..
(even if that means I could get kicked around a second time)..

Russia (DoE) and me made a package deal concerning WPC/G&H and DoE with the result that both games get going again..

Good deal. I was afraid Russia would try to talk me into taking it and I'd feel bad for having to tell him no.

I will try to write up something tonight for both you and Toni to let you know what we have been up to (though you all know we just lost 15 destroyers in Freedom Port )

France is coming back in about 4 days. I will continue to play his turns until he gets back and then he can decide what to do from then on. I'll send him an email tonight too to let him know to expect different players when he comes back.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

One last great AAR post by Vikings that I wanted to respond to:

Since I lost my big post suffice to say that yes we believed the bluff. Why shouldn't we have believed it when we had no information that would have discounted the bluff?

Awww I wanted to hear the reasons you guys bought the bluff! Really, I was hoping that it at least had something to do with Suleiman razing cities from the sea in the past.

Perceptions and belief in your bluffs shaped a lot of what we did.

I think this sums it up nicely. England also had a good quote about out strength being made up mostly of perception and fear. I was wondering all during the War "Why dont Neandor attack me? I was so vunerable. Why does Viking not just start landing Rifles by Galleon Behind Russia's front lines? Russia had no Navy to stop them. Why dont Neandor Vikings and India just all invade Russia at the same time? Why wont France just give Israel the rest of their men to take Damascus? And everytime I kept reaching the same conclusion, "They must be scared." Neandor was scared Russia would invade them if they invaded me or I would invade them if they invaded Russia. Viking was scared that England would invade him if he invaded Russia. India is scared of everyone, etc. That was the only conclusion I could reach. And it seems I was right. Fear was one of our most powerful weapons. The only stronger one was loyalty to our friends.

Nor could we get back the help we had sent to Azteca because of the Turks destroying the fleet in Tlaxcala (A game mechanic that none of us anticipated could happen).

Now here is where I have to call shennanigans. Much Ado has been made about this being unfair and Turkey manipulating game mechanics and everything besides "Wow good move, you caught us with our pants down, not paying attention, being careless, playing sloppy, etc.," but one thing Axis can not claim or at least should not claim, is that they "did not anticipate that this could happen." I am skeptical of this whole attempt to characterize the sinking of the Axis fleet at Tlaxcala as some obscure trick/exploit that only the diobolical expert-civ player Ottomans knew about.

At the beginnig of the North American War, when Aztecs doublemoved Ottomans and the game had to be reloaded, THE WHOLE argument was about how the Aztecs had sunk the Ottoman ships in port and how I had forgotten to unload the Rifles into the city making that whole DM victory possible. That's why the whole thing was so controversial, because everyone knew that the reload was warranted, but it was going to undo the Aztecs big triumph over the evil hated Ottomans. A bunch of people including the Aztecs commented how they never knew that ships with soldiers in them could get sunk like that. I even remember Viking player commenting that he didn't want the reload if it was going to get the Ottomans out of being surprised and losing their ships that way.

So it is just unbeleivable to me that when the Ottomans use the very same tactic, that EVERYBODY knew about because of the VERY public, week long pause and argument over the Miami reload, that anyone would have the audacity to claim that "they didn't know this could happen. And equally preposterous is that all the people who praised Azteca surprising the Ottomans with this tactic, then Condemn Turkey as a "manipulator of game mechanics."

Anyway, this is not even the main point. The MAIN point is that Every player must learn well the way the game works. Would you say while playin RISK, that there is "mechanics manipulation" when the Attaker rolls 3 dice, just because you didn't know that you could do this? You have a responsibility to know the rules of the game you are playing. And your failure to know is not "manipulation" or "exploits" by those who do know. It is poor play by you.

Perceptions and assumptions fueled this latest loss of fleet too. We assumed that the defensive pact we signed would make it so that anyone who attacked Freedom Port would have to face Neandor's defensive forces.

The same applies to the Tlaxcala sinking, and the same applies to the Freedom City sinking that ended the game. If you did not know how DP works, then that is your fault not mine. You tried to outsmart us, when we kept blocking your attempt to get Oil. You said "Ha! we will get Arabia to give to us and then we will sail to Viking territory for upgrades." But then when you realized England would block this, you said "Ha! we will fool them by gifting a City in the Mediterraneanand doing our upgrades there."

Then when you saw the culture drop down in the city and realized the upgraded ships would have to end their turn in port, You tried to use a clever deception "Ha let us sign this DP, knowing the Ottoman will DoW and try to sink our ships but then he will be at war with both of us and our units will defend. Haha! we fooled him. Obviously this was your intent, to lure me into starting the war, only to be unable to sink your ships, because otherwise you would have gifted the units instead of using that sneaky DP gambit. But I knew more than you, because I knew how DP truly works so I outsmart you despite your attempt to outsmart me. And for this I get called the "Master of Manipulation"

Plus I also was under the apparently mistaken assumption that the Turks would not attack me directly because of their in-character statement that they would not attack any nations that were smaller than they (which included me).

If the game continued, I had a whole storyline that involved a trial to determine whether Turk policy was violated by Supreme Commander Jamal. But since the game is over (Maybe) I will just spoil the surprise and say that the result of the trial would have, in a Merchant of Venice style last minute explanation of the exact words of the Sultan's decree held that the policy is not to capture cities from lower raked nations "for CONQUEST purposes" and since Jamal captured the city to Liberate it from the Vikings and desstroy the Enemy fleet, not to conquer and keep it, he would be acquitted and released... Sounds great huh?

[Vikings (DoE)]

@Ottomans, because I don't want to quote your whole post: My post was not condemning you for manipulating game mechanics, I was just stating that neither I nor any of the other ACE members, or the Aztecs, realized that the sinking of the fleet in Tlaxcala was possible. If we had then we would have taken different measures such as having the fleet gifted over to me while it was in my port. I didn't know exactly what happened with the Azteca move that was canceled out as I was busy moving at the time and didn't keep up with posts very much.

Just the same, neither Neandor or I realized that the defensive pact between us wouldn't keep you out. I don't use them hardly at all so I don't have any valid experience with them. I can guarantee that neither that or the Tlaxcala sinking will ever happen to me again. You are correct that we should have known the mechanics there and we didn't. I know a lot of little tricks, but certainly not all of them. Now I know this one.

As to the fear and England's bluff. Yes, we were afraid of what you, the Russian alliance could do. We were afraid that if we attacked someone that we would get stabbed in the back because you guys had us surrounded (England, Russia, Turks, and Mali, plus whatever could come up from the Incas). We were intent on defending ourselves and getting machine guns, etc. for that purpose, and attacking someone else was never discussed until after the great war when France and I were pondering attacking the Inca.

I personally was afraid of England attacking me. I still stripped my land of units in order to save Neandor's cities, and then England attacked. As to why I believe the bluff, it didn't have anything to do with you (sorry). I just believed that what they were saying was the truth. Coming into this only 15-20 days before it happened I had no experience with them to justify that it wasn't the complete and honest truth. Perhaps I'm naive as I also believed that you told the truth when you said you would not attack anyone smaller than yourself and then you attacked me anyway. So yeah, I shouldn't ever believe anything you say, apparently.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Perhaps I'm naive as I also believed that you told the truth when you said you would not attack anyone smaller than yourself and then you attacked me anyway. So yeah, I shouldn't ever believe anything you say, apparently.

Yea, OK. But go back and read what I actually posted. It was very carefully worded with exactly this situation in mind. I think you put too much weight on what YOU WANTED the words to mean, instead of what I actually said. But if you were fooled in this way then good Go Turkey!

[Vikings (DoE)]

Yea, OK. But go back and read what I actually posted. It was very carefully worded with exactly this situation in mind. I think you put too much weight on what YOU WANTED the words to mean, instead of what I actually said. But if you were fooled in this way then good Go Turkey!

Hmmph, semantics. You conquered the city. Just because it wasn't "for conquest purposes" doesn't mean it isn't conquest. Like I said, I shouldn't ever believe anything you say in-character anymore (I figure I better make that distinction). One more reason why I'm not cut out for this type of game, since I took you at your in-character word which was proved false, however you try to spin it.

Not that I'm continuing to play in this game anyway, but still. Everyone be warned.

[Vikings (DoE)]

Here is your quote directly from the story thread:

So I announce that the Sultan, after much deliberation, has decided that Turkey will adopt as official policy, the tenets contained in Chapter 1 of The Great Treatise of International Law,
specifically, it shall be the policy of Turkey not to make conquest-oriented War on lower ranked nations. Accordingly, Turkey approves as lawful, India's effort to conquer land from China, as China is ranked higher than India.

From Merriam Webster here is the definition of conquest:

1: the act or process of conquering

And the definition of conquer:

1: to gain or acquire by force of arms : subjugate

Anything else you'd like to spin to justify attacking me after you said you would not attack lower ranked nations? You deliberately captured my city, by force of arms. You should be a politician. Just because you say it wasn't for conquest doesn't mean you didn't still declare war on me and take the city by plopping a unit into it...via conquest.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Sure I will take a shot at some more spin...

Going off the definition you posted, (which I'll accept as accurate to be a good sport)... The capture of Freedom City was not "conquest-oriented" because the purpose of attacking the city was not to "acquire" the city nor to "subjugate" the city to Turkish rule. The differece would have been spun out and story posted in a trial of Jamal as I just explained above (I guess you missed that) And In fact, had you Axis guys not all started crying foul and quitting, I would have immediately offered Neandor the city back, as it was my intent to LIBERATE NOT SUBJUGATE the city and return it to Neandor. I don't want that city. I just don't want Vikings to have it. And that, friend, is why Jamal gets acquitted, because the capture of Freedom city was NOT "conquest-oriented". You can argue all you want that Webster says its conquest, but that doesn't matter, because its not conquest-oriented, and thus not violative of Turkish policy.

Semantics? Yes, Technical? Sure, but an argument that is "Technically" correct is still correct. Remember, I'm no Politician... I'm the SULTAN of Turkey.

Two points... first, This argument is very very IC. So if you're really quitting, we should just end it here. If youre staying in the game, then by all means continue it in the story thread

The second, even if I was flat-out LYING to you IC to trick you into exposing yourself militarily... Vikings are members of the enemy alliance. I'm don't owe you guys any honesty, Duh! Why would you ever trust me or think you could use my words to hamstring me to protect your evil Axis goals. If you have to break your word to an enemy to win the war, then hey... Read any Machiavelli lately?

So How ya like dem apples? Ummmm hmmm, You know you do

[Vikings (DoE)]

Uh huh. Like I said, I'm not cut out for this type of game. I believed your post in the primary way it appeared, not the 40 twists and turns you took to justify it in-character. I maintain you'd make a fabulous politician.