Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[Calanthian]

A perfect example of a civ choosing to be Fodder, because it would be fun for them. That's why you are OK with it and not whining about it, because you knew that's what you were doing and wanted to go out in a blaze of glory.

I wouldn't call it a blaze of glory, at best a blaze of confusion

Actually I planned to draw out the revolution thing some more..
but you kept on attacking, so quickly there wasn't a point in it anymore..

[Calanthian]

The WPC diplo game is going to restart within 24 hrs.

We have one, central position: Athens available. PM me if you are interested..

Russia (DoE), do you join? Or anyone else?

[Russia (DoE)]

And are you going to take the Neandors in this one?

[OzzyKP]

Let that be the arrangement. Calanthian takes Neandor and Russia takes Athens. Do it!

[LzPrst]

Russia takes Athens. Do it!

Groaan! This is gonna be the Delian League all over again

[Russia (DoE)]

Groaan! This is gonna be the Delian League all over again

[The Priest]

@ Ottomans

You really do make me laugh, though at the same time you sadly reveal your approach to discussions. Perhaps that is why few engage with you.

A mock apology for ignoring the argument and making personal attacks followed by ... four more paragraphs of personal attacks which continue to ignore the argument that, the previous diplo games I mentioned haven't followed the pattern you assert.

But that isn't something you want to hear. You know you are right, so sail on my friend. Enjoy!

[Russia (DoE)]

OK, Priest, you state that the previous games were different than this one. After this you make assumption that your replacement did not played them. How he is supposed to know what was in the previous games and argue with you about them? What if the guy is new to the diplo-gaming?

And he is right without doubt about few things - you and Neandord took the second city from the French, causing him to quit. Then you razed the second city of the Israeli. And thats in the first 50 or so turns of the game. How this works with your accusations of this guy being too harsh or the whole game being not-so-diplo?

[Russia (DoE)]

And here comes the constructive part - why dont you take the Neandors as a sub and teach this knave to behave?

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Some stuff I meant to respond to earlier:

+1 for the spirit, America. Always liked your stories and your attitude btw.

Agreed!. Frankly, I think late-game Americans were one of the best players in the game as far as Diplogaming was concerned.

OTOH, at least this cant be denied to the Ottomans - where they set foot, the stories immediately thrive!

Thanks Russia for the recognition I tried really hard to be a good villain, the civ everybody loved to hate, and to keep the game exciting and fun.

Haha, and agreed about the Ottomans; their attack totally spiced things up

Im glad you appreciated that part at least

With every civ in the world cheering the Japanese for turning my pathetic empire into a bottom level civ.

In all fairness to India, this is exactly what was going on, even I was helping Japan a little at the beginning and it was because as I said before, India was Fodder. India wanted to be independantly strong, and consequently, they had no alliance that was willing to go to bat for them. We all just saw them as something to fight over, not fight for.

As the Ottoman player said, he had nothing, yet with nothing he managed to field a strong army to invade America with? Really what happened was that you gave him a huge army after the war, am I right?

Partly true. Russia and Turkey were jointly fighting France Neandor and Israel in Africa. I was giving Russia older units to bolster his garrisons, Navy which he couldnt build, as he didn't even have Calendar, and Siege units, And in return he supplied me with more advanced units. Also, I was getting a substantial amount of units from Arabia. Arabia was sending units to me and then I send to Russia for upgrades and some Russia gave to me and some Russia gave to Arabia, while I supplied Arabia with Naval units and upgrades and put an end to their culture war over the Red sea for them by taking all the Israeli cities on the Red Sea. And then, as a condition of Israel's surrender, they had to turn over their whole Army to me, which I then sent to Russia for upgrades.

His actions may have been his own, but his armies came from you. It certainly seemed as if you were behind it

So by the end of the Great War, I had ammased a good amount of military units, but it was nothing like what Azteca and you thought, which was - Russia just gave Turkey a huge Army and told them "Now Go Forth and Crush my new enemies the Americans and Aztecs... Good Dog!" In truth all Russia did to encourage that attack was just mention that Aztecs had planned to invade Africa. We were planning to let them invade and just arm the Africans and trap the Aztecs, but part way through the planning, I caught the Aztecs scouting the African coast (with the Zulus) and loading their Rifles into Galleons in the most Eastern city (with Turkish espionage), clearly preparing for the invasion. So came to 3 conclusions.

1. The Zulus did not have enough forces to withstand what the Aztecs were sending, so I needed to pre-empt the invasion

2. If we let the Aztecs invade Africa, then intervened, France would probably side with Aztecs and with their MASSIVE garrison in Tangiers, we would lose. Then Axis would be the masters of Africa and my Israeli nemesis would be rejuvenated . Plus our alliance would look weak. So I had to bring the fight to to the West, where Axis had no forces to muck things up. "Better to fight over there then back here again" I was thinking.

3. This was a perfect excuse to invade North America. About this - When I joined the game to sub for Ottomans, the nation was in bad shape. Backwards in tech, sucky land, sandwiched between Superpowers and France with huge garrisons on our borders. I needed to expand my lands and I needed allies quick. Out of my neighbors the only targets without the huge garrisons were Arabia and Israel. However Russia told me almost immediately that Arabia was under Russia's protection and off limits, so that left Israel as my only choice to attack.

But I needed allies to guard my back while I invaded. I tried to reach out to France, but they ignored me. I tried to reach out to Neandor, but it became obvious that Neandor was only interested in extracting a few coins from me for some ragtag obsolete units he wanted to dump. Neandor just wanted to exploit me and seemed more interested in using me as a foil against Russia than helping me improve my situation. So that whole idea was scrapped. I couldnt invade Israel with Russia France AND Neandor breathing down my neck.

I looked at the Diplo-tech window and saw that only the civs in the Americas were as backwards as me. So new plan was to try and launch a colonialism style invasion of the Americas while they were still backwards, as it seemed England had already done. England was already in South America, so I had to target North America. But there were 2 BIG problems... First, I didn't even have Astronomy yet, and Second, I knew that Diplogames were different from MP games. I couldnt just attack somebody for NO REASON.

So I thought I would focus my efforts hard on fixing the first problem while I tried to think of a way to deal with the second one... Eventually it hit me... I could develop a Storyline that would help explain my push into America and pair it to my Aggressive push to get Astronomy... enter the Inventor Brahman/Accolytes Storyline. The Inventor Brahman was a Great Scientist that I got by switching to Caste system. I used him to rush Astronomy and his 'teachings' for Turks to leave Europe so that I could set sail to colonize North America.

My original plan was to force my way into North America, and try to use my superior (by North American standards) tech to take a big chunk of land and become a Superpower over there. I was planning to abandon my European cities to Russia, France, Neandor and Israel, in exchange for military and monetary aid. Now tell me that wouldn't have spiced things up?

Unfortunately, right around the time I was loading my newly built Galleons to leave, the Great War broke out, and Russia and England started pressuring me to get involved. I desperately just wanted to leave Europe to its troubles, and just stick to my plan to go kick the sh!t out of the North Americans and play my own, independent game. But then I realized that that is a sucker's strategy, you have to form alliances or you are Fodder.

So I gave up my dreams of leaving Europe, and focused everything on trying to save England... OK so Great War, yada yada yada, done... Alright, THEN, fast forward to when I found out Aztecs were planning to invade Africa. I HAD to invade Aztecs anyway, so I thought, this is my chance to kill two birds with one stone, plus I thought, America is probably helping them, or in on it somehow, so if I just do it really fast it will be over in like 2 turns, those guys are so weak over there... And then... wait for it...

INCA started meddling and threatening to DoW me and demanding that I leave, so then it was impossible to invade full out, because I had to keep some men in Havana to be sure Inca didn't take it.

That stalled me out alot... enough that my worst fear was realized. I knew that whether I fought the Aztecs in Africa or in North America, the French were going to intervene, that was a given. But I thought with North America I would have 2-4 turns before the French would arrive, whereas they would be there instantly in Africa. But when the Inca started meddling, it threw everything off and gave the French time to arrive... that plus the Aztecs DM controversy/reload created so much bad press that finally Russia stepped in and asked me to back off, which I did.

Anyway, Look back at the old story threads, its all there, my invasion of America was telegraphed from day one.

:

I experienced first hand that fair play was not something that was considered in this game, and as such, playing on would be futile.

I think it needs to be said, that Indian player, you, deserve alot of respect, because through very difficult situations you tough it out. I mean you complain and whine alot, but in the end you stick with it, and that's what matters Very Manly, and worthy of much praise and admiration. Three Cheers for India!

[The Priest]

@Russia

Sorry you misunderstand me. I guess the Ottoman is new to this diplo playing, which is why I thought it worth pointing out that while his analysis might apply to this game, I don't think it has actually always applied.

Its not constructive for me to get into a great argument about events long ago. Particlarly because I've never been trying to say 'I am wonderful' nor at all 'Ottoman is bad' - far from it, it seems like he has played a great game. Never meant to imply otherwise. Just wanted to point out that the analysis of how games are 'always going to happen' doesn't seem to me to have been born out by previous games. Maybe it was me as the wicked first ottoman sultan who started the rot?

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Less personal arguments.

Sorry Inca Something you might know about me by now, is I'm one of those people who LOVES to argue, LOVES long arguments, LOVES nasty personal arguments, and LOVES arguing about civ. Basically, I 'm an @ss, when I want to be. So, getting back to it...

@ Ottomans

You really do make me laugh, though at the same time you sadly reveal your approach to discussions. Perhaps that is why few engage with you.

A mock apology for ignoring the argument and making personal attacks followed by ... four more paragraphs of personal attacks which continue to ignore the argument that, the previous diplo games I mentioned haven't followed the pattern you assert.

There was no "mock" apology. My apology was 100% genuine. You were 100% correct to say that my first response was pure ad-hominem with no substance whatsoever. I mentioned reading all your PMs, but I did not mention what they said or how they contradicted the point you were trying to make. So again, my argument was poor, and my apology was genuine.

Furthermore, I think you deserve for me to admit that in reading my second response the tone, emoticons and wording of it could lead someone who is already a little irritated towards me to think that I was being sarcastic, so just to clarify, it was not sarcastic, it was genuine.

But just because I am apologizing for the poor quality of the arguments in first response, does not mean I am apologizing for disagreeing with you. I say again, your assertions about the "gentleman's code" are wrong and naieve, and totally contradictory to your own behavior. I proved that in my second response, and Russia has confirmed it, so now you are the one who is being non responsive and engaging in pure non-substantive ad-hominem. I am curious to see if you will apologize now as I did to you before.

And here comes the constructive part - why dont you take the Neandors as a sub and teach this knave to behave?

Exactly The Priest, as we say in America, Put up... or Shut up.

And what are you talking about "No one engages you"? No one (except me, and Russia to agree with me and disagree with you) has responded to anything you said since this discussion started. EVERYTHING I say gets responded to. Everybody loves debating with Turkey!

[Russia (DoE)]

I thought it worth pointing out that while his analysis might apply to this game, I don't think it has actually always applied.

Understood now. I guess he is saying this from his experience. I got the feeling he is talking about pitbosses as a whole, not exactly for the diplo-games. And then he said he has quite experience in pitbosses.

Maybe it was me as the wicked first ottoman sultan who started the rot?

Yeah, not a bad guess
And maybe the new blood in the diplo-games (about 1/3 of the players were first-time diplo-gamers) has its share for creating such a turbulent (but still GREAT - by the words of few diplo-gurus) game Not bad for an amateurs, eh?

[The Priest]

@Russia - thanks. Perhaps part of the problem, aside from my wickedness, was that the closeness of nations in europe meant choking was going on with second cities, which strained previously existing norms of behaviour.

@Ottoman - sigh. I've never claimed to be particularly gentlemanly, just to point out evidence worth noting from how previous games have worked out. I think you have really, and I am sure genuinely, misunderstood my original post. I never posted about my virtue, or held myself up as some model of a gentlemanly code, so attacks on my virtue are rather pointless, however well they are proved. Old pm's from me as Ottomans can't contradict the point about how previous games have run! But I don't suppose we are going to see eye to eye on this, and everyone else will be well bored of this exchange, so I will shut up.

[Russia (DoE)]

I am glad to see a dispute handled in a mature way. (Something I lack sometimes- I do warm up much at times)

But still - you taking the Neandors is absolutely real proposal - you play in the DoF, right? So I guess your RL problems, which took you away from Civ are gone - why dont you sub the Neandors and help giving a great game the finish she deserves?