Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[Vikings (DoE)]

What?!? That is baloney! The Aztecs logged in at the end of the turn, after I had played, and then the next turn they logged in before me and attacked. That WAS a Doublemove, and as the host explained, that is why the game was reloaded.

In the current situation, I logged in at the end of the turn, after you played, and stayed logged in through the turn roll and finished my turn before you. We were not at war and I DID NOT declare war, so there was no Doublemove... Then you logged in AFTER me and finished your turn... THEN, the yum ended... new turn. THEN on the next turn, I logged in before you and declared war and attacked you. That IS NOT a Doublemove! What are you talking about? You played AFTER me last turn and I played before you this turn.

There is no comparison, there is no Doublemove. You just got outmaneuvered... period.

Please see my retraction above. I misunderstood something and thought you had logged in after we did in the same turn. I went back and re-read some posts and realized my error.

[Inca (DoE)]

In this game there was never any possibility of being anything but a puppet to the major powers, you, China and Inca made sure of that.

For the record, I never had alliance (or much contact) with the original Chinese player. I also wasn't going to do very much in that war, not even blockade (as it would not be IC to do so). That was a 100% IC move that was going to have a minimal impact on the war. I have no ground units to commit, being as I am a fairly pacifist nation ("passive puppet" okay). You see the support I've given to Japan and Arabia so far? That was what China was going to get (and it's over, my units are heading home save the ships I've sent to help you and Arabia clear your waters).

But, we've had this conversation before, and it ended with me sucking a dick if I recall, so what's the point? Yeah, let's talk about bad sportsmanship...

I've tried lately to keep things balanced, create IC approaches to bring some independence and "fairness" to the game, but it's been fairly coldly received, with Arabia being the only one signing onto the CIJ (perhaps it was just too complicated), and God knows their actual reasons for it.

I never would have been so hard in the Russia sphere if England hadn't lost its core cities. Yeah, I gave them massive assistance during that war and later that was probably fairly important (I hope) in their successes, but I also was considering playing both sides a la the US in the beginning of the World Wars. ACE, however, just wasn't interested. Okay.

England brought me in, and in order to balance the game (remember when...) I stayed in. The game got "overbalanced" in that respect, okay, and I've been shifting into a more neutral stance since, but I'm still going to be lumped in with the people "ruining the game" because I didn't just jump ship and start supporting ACE and the rest the second things shifted? It's not my personal character, and it wouldn've have been IC either.

Still, I just signed a large arms contract and a tentative resource deal with an ACE ally that hasn't gone down very well with the others in my group and has caused me some significant issues, plus I've offered them upgrades to destroyers (for all the hell that would cause if it ever went through)... But, no, I should've just broke with them completely so that some people who barely spoke to me all game would feel like things were more "balanced" :/

Or was it that I should've set up a regional alliance to create a new factor? You know what, I tried. Two of the three people I was trying to rope in weren't really responsive; the main nation, the Natives, being an extremely passive and pacifistic player compared to me even. What was that alliance ever going to accomplish? Plus the Aztecs were getting steamrolled and had clearly gone hard for the ACE alliance. It wasn't really plausible, plus I could never be on bad terms with England for about 5 solid reasons. I tried setting things up for a greater Pacific group, but both Japan and China were fairly uninterested in communicating with me, so it never got off the ground either. Okay.

This game was far from decided still. Perhaps with that second Turkish coup d'etat it is, perhaps not (congrats on pulling that off twice, btw). I think things were just getting interesting, and it would be a pity to call it.

But, if the game is this unenjoyable for so many key players, then perhaps it is time to call it. Personally, I'm sick of the whining also, but if that's what people are getting out of it, so be it.

Sorry to hear about the personal hardships of England and Turkey's respective human players. I knew things were going rough for the former, but that's still news to me. Thanks for sticking with it guys.

So, this game is fairly toast, the WPC game is dying already, and I'm going to be razed into a smouldering crater in DoF in about two weeks, so it's been fun guys, too bad it's ending

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Please see my retraction above. I misunderstood something and thought you had logged in after we did in the same turn. I went back and re-read some posts and realized my error.

Thanks being the villain is bad enough without being accused of Doublemoves

[Inca (DoE)]

Just to note two things. I know that someone in ACE did want a contract, but it was at a bad time when I was already committed, so I suppose I can get that put against me. Likewise, the Aztec player wanted me to help them go off invading people somewhat at random, which wasn't really what I was looking for in an alliance. But then, I guess I'm a super-loyal "carebear" in this game, so there's that issue, but then I've been fully content to be so in this game, and have enjoyed it despite never really committing a single unit to combat (not that I clearly am incapable of fighting in MP games if I want, as the WPC game would show if it ever gets anywhere), so I'm not going to apologize for that. If I wanted a game where power and score were important, I'd be playing another PB game somewhere else.

[Vikings (DoE)]

I never would have been so hard in the Russia sphere if England hadn't lost its core cities. Yeah, I gave them massive assistance during that war and later that was probably fairly important (I hope) in their successes, but I also was considering playing both sides a la the US in the beginning of the World Wars. ACE, however, just wasn't interested. Okay.

I did court you before the beginning of the Great War (my Ragnarok speech and subsequent PMs) as I courted everyone who wasn't a completely confirmed Russian ally. At the time Neandor was too busy IRL and France was on vacation so I was the only one that could. You told me that you were already dealing with the Russians and wouldn't help beyond offering us poor terms for purchasing units from you. We couldn't take that because we needed our gold for rushing toward railroad and our own upgrades.

After that it seemed like you went farther and farther into the Russian camp. I know France mentioned some stuff a while back about contacting you for balancing the scales, but I'm not sure exactly what that was. In any case, to us, you seemed to be a confirmed Russian ally and we stopped bothering to contact you about joining us.

When the Turks invaded the Americans and Aztecs, the ACE sent help in the form of units and we left it to the two of them to court you and the Natives since the ACE hadn't had much luck courting either of you. We couldn't do more than send units because we couldn't directly attack them (because of the great War treaty). The Natives then joined the Russian alliance after we'd sent them several PMs about our intentions (mistakenly believing they would help their fellow American continent nations). Word from the Aztecs was that you were saying you might help them, but then they saw several of your units directly in Turk employ and several more (in your employ) that were in the cities the Turks took. So no, we never felt we could trust you. It seemed to us like you were still part of the Russian alliance and you were trying to play us.

At that time the Russian alliance seemingly consisted of the Russians, the English, the Turks, the Incas, the Native Americans, the Mali, the Zulus, and the Arabians (this was before the new player took over). That is 4 of the 6 top score players, and the Chinese player (another in the top 6) stated I was persona non grata too for finishing my predecessor's deal with the Indians, which also brought in the Japanese against us.

And finally, you snuck a settler on to that oil just north of America. I was diplomatically asking them if I could settle that territory instead of just taking it, so it took me a few extra turns and you beat me to it by one turn because you didn't ask first. That in effect led us all to the action of the Tlaxcala gifting (which failed because of NA culture and Russian/Turk determination that we not have oil) since none of us had oil except for the Aztecs who were nowhere close to the destroyer tech. Again this was before the new Arabian player joined. We had no other choices in the game because the entire rest of the world was against us and already had oil and had started upgrading destroyers.

[Russia (DoE)]

I'm back!

Have full 12-pack of beer, some fancy Belgium cow dried meat and a whole 20-scrolls civ-related text to read! Wohooo!!

(btw, Robert, you can put some more emoticons)

[Arabia2 (doe)]

Ic and ooc getting a bit mixxed here. Just one bit to the exploit or strategy matter: We are somewhat modeling real world events in the game, it would never happen that Rambo would sink 15 destroyers while a big allied army just watch by (Rambo would at least kill them too ) So it is an exploit of world mechanism, also a strategy which is not an illegal move and I did not say I wouldn't use similar tactics when in need.
I too think there was too much complaining in the game, and I also think that players should had shown more responsibility for the balance of the game.
About villainy: being an IC villain is not a bad ting at all. In Iran's perspective Ottomans were evil IC but for this discussion there is the IC/story thread.

[England (DoE)]

No surprise that the Vikings didn't read my post. Once again a "boo hoo, we're so poor, we're so friendless, we're so backwards, those big mean Russians are ruining everything". This game has NEVER been decided. Certainly not lately. Not that you seem to care what I have to say, but we were all freaking out about everything you guys were doing. Every wrong move on our part seemed ready to doom us. We seemed to always be on the brink of handing everything over to you. We were fairly matched, and you had numerous opportunities to take the upper hand. Indeed it seemed quite likely that you would.

The fact that you didn't (or haven't yet) is not because things were "stacked against you" or we were being "unfair" or "exploiting game mechanics" or any other bull **** excuses you use. You had every opportunity, but we just out played you. If you managed to upgrade that whole fleet, things would have been much different. Or if you hadn't lost that whole Aztec fleet earlier, things would be much different. But you lost. You were outwitted. That isn't unfair. That is how the game is played.

I didn't whine that you had stacks of riflemen when I barely had muskets. That wasn't "unfair". You didn't use an "exploit". I focused on expanding overseas and you focused on building an advanced military to attack me. It sure felt rotten to lose, but there wasn't anything unfair about it. When I ended up winning, it wasn't because I was being unfair either.

[Vikings (DoE)]

No surprise that the Vikings didn't read my post. Once again a "boo hoo, we're so poor, we're so friendless, we're so backwards, those big mean Russians are ruining everything". This game has NEVER been decided. Certainly not lately. Not that you seem to care what I have to say, but we were all freaking out about everything you guys were doing. Every wrong move on our part seemed ready to doom us. We seemed to always be on the brink of handing everything over to you. We were fairly matched, and you had numerous opportunities to take the upper hand. Indeed it seemed quite likely that you would.

The fact that you didn't (or haven't yet) is not because things were "stacked against you" or we were being "unfair" or "exploiting game mechanics" or any other bull **** excuses you use. You had every opportunity, but we just out played you. If you managed to upgrade that whole fleet, things would have been much different. Or if you hadn't lost that whole Aztec fleet earlier, things would be much different. But you lost. You were outwitted. That isn't unfair. That is how the game is played.

I didn't whine that you had stacks of riflemen when I barely had muskets. That wasn't "unfair". You didn't use an "exploit". I focused on expanding overseas and you focused on building an advanced military to attack me. It sure felt rotten to lose, but there wasn't anything unfair about it. When I ended up winning, it wasn't because I was being unfair either.

Get off your high horse. Jeez, this is why I don't want to game with you anymore.

Obviously you didn't read the post I wrote either. I wasn't whining, I was stating how we felt about how events played out. Go back a bit and actually read the part where I said you guys won. YOU WERE BETTER THAN US! I've been saying that for weeks and I get blasted as a quitter. The ****ing game is over and has been since the end of the Great War.

Apparently you're better people too, or so you seem to believe. I could state some "issues" I've been going through too like you and the Turks did. But I won't bother. Apparently yours are the only legitimate "issues" since you felt the need to bring them up.

As to attacking you with rifles when you had muskets, that was not me that was my predecessor. By the time I took over there was nowhere left to expand beyond taking someone else's territory.

[Russia (DoE)]

Oh, dear

A lot of things to address, very strong passages and few not so strong.

Should I comment/reply to everything? No. Shall I address some? Sure, why not.

[Inca (DoE)]

Note my second message. It was you that contacted me, yes I think so. I was already committed heavily, and I didn't want to go putting 100% of my production for 20+ turns into other people's nations without good payouts, plus the backlash for selling you units wasn't going to be worth a small markup.

France wanted to "balance the scales"? Right, a giant joke. France demanded I gift them a ton of free units. That set the tone for a long time (which is being re-set by Neandor quite recently). "Hey, sorry we closed borders on you for half the game and haven't really ever talked to you, now, hey, be nice and give us like 12 free units..." I'm pretty sure this doesn't exist as a diplo modifier for AIs, but Firaxis should really consider including a "-10 You made my spit out my drink in astonished and baffled offense" modifier for Civ6.

The Natives were never in the Russian alliance AFAIK. The Natives put a lot of effort into not being in any alliance, and now here they are in the Russian alliance in your eyes, even after I was the one to sell them units and build infrastructure for them and they made a big stink about not appearing or being part of any group as part of my "build a new faction" attempt. You guys demand independence, and then you have a truly independent player like the Natives, and they do basically nothing and become a "Russian puppet"...

There was a lot of back-and-forth behind the scenes over that Azteca thing. In the end, there was little I could do for the Aztecs, and eventually I gave a show of support to Russia, having few other options. Not trusting me at that point was probably correct, as by then I had seen that any American faction was going to be crippled from the start and fairly unworkable. I was never happy about that, but then I ultimately supported the Turks and Russians as I didn't like massive ACE armies sitting a few tiles from my borders either. It was a lot less of an issue than seeing similar Turkish armies there when I didn't expect them. Both were issues, as I didn't want any further European involvement in the Americas, but Turkey just wasn't someone to be messed with militarily, especially not by my weak nation.

You say I'm in the Russian alliance, but you're never going to see a stack of 40 Inca infantry outside of Neander... which I could do in like 20T quite easily if I wanted. I have kept out of these wars directly recently (always, but for other reasons) because I haven't been needed, and it has been out of character to do so. I know I've worked to keep the game unbalanced with my material support, but then it's been my belief that this "imbalance" was, up until this turn at least, not as severe as it's made out to be, and following my own interests led inevitably to such imbalances, which I've tried recently to correct more and more, even at a rather high likelihood of net negative consequences to myself.

Disregarding England's tone, he does make some solid points that had the two lost fleets not happened (and had the Aztec's original victory not been erased), the game would be extremely different right now, especially with a vengeful India gobbling up China. Just take one of those lost fleets back, and the game's still not nearly so one-sided. That plus my own neutralization would have surely ended whatever superpowerhegemonicoverlordshippuppetmastery Russia had going.

Do note that the Turks snuck a settler onto that Alaskan soil (which the Americans had promised me already for my attempted intervention in the Turkish-Azteca-American war), and then the Turks gave their city to me as a loan. They will get it back later (never, I guess).

[Vikings (DoE)]

Apparently you're better people too, or so you seem to believe. I could state some "issues" I've been going through too like you and the Turks did. But I won't bother. Apparently yours are the only legitimate "issues" since you felt the need to bring them up..

BTW, I'm not trying to belittle the Turks loss of his parents to cancer. My wife and I have both lost family members to cancer, including her mother, so I know what it's like. My apologies to you if what I said came off that way.

As for the English, I can match you issue for issue, plus more. So...yeah.

[Russia (DoE)]

BTW, are we calling this game and starting an After Action Report, or we only argue with few quitters?

[Russia (DoE)]

I have played a lot of diplogames and I have taken over as a perm-sub several times for sucky nations that have been totally screwed and made them into fun civs to play.

This was a perfect opportunity for this too. But I find a bit of discord here. In the last few weeks you said something about how in previous games someone almost made you ulcer and you were mad at the game. Beside learning a new word in English, I thought to myself "Well, this guy is real diplo-player - he takes the game personally, he takes the blows of the game, and yet he plays and survives, he is survivor" But just now you have proved me wrong - now you say you actually enjoyed those past games, contrary to this last one. But what happened to your nation in this game? You decided to oppose the largest and mightiest nation on your continent - well done, but opposing such a giant takes not only to whine - it takes some diplomacy, some sly moves, some planning, some fighting too. Back in the time I was planning how to deal with China, as they were simply going to be unstoppable developing at peace while we beat the crap out of ourselves in the Great War. I did approached Mongolia and offered them help in fighting China. Yes, it was not much I could have done, but starting to plan something sometimes leads you to something big. Rebuffing all means nothing. Then I decided to reach out for you - tell us - did I approached you, asking you if you are willing to stand against China with my help? Did I ever proposed to you to arm you with Rifles and you were supposed to transfer those rifles to Mongolia, while arming yourself to assault the Chinese too? Did I? Yes, I did. And what you did? Said me this is too big risk for you and you have to consider it more. And you never came back to me, but started to state you are friend with Neandor and started to talk the Japanese in attacking England, as they did not had already 3 major military powers beating them badly in Europe and in the Pacific.

England weeped over to me they were going to lose what was left theirs in the Pacific and then I took the things in my hands.

[Inca (DoE)]

BTW, are we calling this game and starting an After Action Report, or we only argue with few quitters?

If Neandor, France, Vikings, China, Zulu, and India are all gone, yes, I'm not sure it's worth playing on. I also don't want to put the effort into the game if there's only like 3 other regular contributors and everyone's basically "checked out".