Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[India (DoE)]

The hypothetical situation is hypothetical and not based in this game. Does Ottoman agree to the following:

If Civ A wants to make a deal with Civ B to do something against Civ C, and unknown to all players it is Civ C who is subbing for Civ B and thus gets to know OOC secret information, then that is hugely problematic.

If only it is known that Civ B is run by a sub, then any subbed civ would be a huge risk to communicate with as they may well be played by a rival. It is a controversy that people do not know if another civ's player is behind the mask of a "neutral" civ. It completely shatters any sense of trust in any civ run by a sub, especially as it would be unclear whether the sub was an independent temporary sub or another nation's player. There needs to be a system for subs so that the hypothetical Civ A would know that he would not risk telling their rival something they should not be able to know.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

I disagree with the Ottoman position. The players of the game have a right to know ...

Okay so we have a simple difference of opinion. My opinion of what works in pitboss and what does not, is based on over 5 years MP and pitboss experience, hosting dozens of games in normal Direct IP and Hamachi format, including all kinds of team games and all kinds of Maps. This includes acting as an non-player administrator as well as administrating games that I was actually playing in. This also includes mediating disputes ranging from DM issues to arguments over subs, turn order, map bugs, missed turns, etc.

What is your opinion based on? A similar level of experience or just your gut instict about fairness?

Which is not to say it has to be posted in big, banner letters. But it has to be posted, and everyone has to know...

It has been posted plenty of times that Zulu needed a sub and/or had a sub. If people missed it, that's because they werent paying attention. If people knew at one time, but then forgot, then good, that means the sub is doing their job. A sub of a farce civ should be invisible, so as not to undermine the enjoyability of the game for the REAL civs.

So while I might agree that players deserve an opportunity to know a civ has a sub, I disagree that "everyone has to know." Whether you "know" or not depends largely on how well you pay attention to the threads.

By "everyone" are you saying that we should pause the game every time a new person joins or comes back from vacation to give them a rundown on all the sub situations going on? And by "has to know" are you saying that the game must stay paused until that person actually confirms that they have recieved and are aware of the sub situation? Otherwise how can we be sure that EVERYONE KNOWS all the subbing situations?

Subbing situations are quite fluid in this game and often last well over the 2 turns you are talking about. I suspect it might blow your mind to know how often civs have subbed for each other in this game, for many turns, during wars and everything else, apparently without you even noticing, which is exactly the point. This allows us to avoid long pauses, (which BTW I have heard YOU complaining against IIRC) while waiting for subs to be approved/acknowledged, etc. Do you have any idea how much the game would be paused for arguments etc, if we followed your "everyone has to know" philosophy?

And where do you get 2 turns from anyway? Is that just an arbitrary number you pulled out of this air? What if the turn is 36 hours instead of 18? Does that make a difference? Did you even consider that?

I have a friendly suggestion for Natives. Why don't you try right now to find a sub for the Zulu, and imagine that the game would be paused all while you are trying to find a sub. Imagine us having to do that everytime somebody went on vacation. Then you can evaluate your "everyone has to know" approach from a more informed position.

If you don't feel like finding a sub for the Zulu, then that just proves my point. Don't make up arbitrary rules that create work and headaches for others. Somebody has to actually spend the time to go out there and recruit a sub for these teams.

Having recruited hundreds of players for dozens of games myself I can tell you, that finding subs is a blooming hassle. Especially when people then come out of the woodwork to criticize the subs and how it was handled etc. So if you aren't going to find the sub yourself then making a bunch of demands about being informed about this and that is terribly unfair.

The hypothetical situation is hypothetical and not based in this game. Does Ottoman agree to the following:

If Civ A wants to make a deal with Civ B to do something against Civ C, and unknown to all players it is Civ C who is subbing for Civ B and thus gets to know OOC secret information, then that is hugely problematic.

No I do not agree. The hypothetical situation you describe is not "hugely problematic" at all. First of all there is no OOC information involved in the situation you describe. Civ A wants to harm Civ C is completely IC info. Second, that situation has actually happened to me multiple times in this game, and you just move on, no big deal... Certainly nothing "hugely problematic."

One thing I have discovered in my experience hosting games, is that what players THINK they WANT to know, and what they NEED to know to keep the game fun is often two very different things. It is human nature to WANT to know everything, but like in a magic show knowing everything spoils the fun.

[Inca (DoE)]

Personally, I think anytime someone subs for more than a few days, it should be noted here that there is a sub in, and it should be noted when the sub leaves. If the sub is more or less permanent, it should also be noted that a new player has entered for X civ.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Personally, I think anytime someone subs for more than a few days, it should be noted here that there is a sub in, and it should be noted when the sub leaves. If the sub is more or less permanent, it should also be noted that a new player has entered for X civ.

Again, what is "a few"? And is that based on arbitrary what-feels-right gut-instinct or some sort of empirical evidence, like "in the last X games played, when a player was absent for more than Y days there was an Z% chance he wasn't coming back"?

Also what penalty would you propose for violation of this rule? Because I can tell you, the situation you describe happens ALL of the time where civs are subbed for days, even weeks without any notice or posting, and the subs come and go quietly, no posting, no notice, no nothing... maybe you didnt realize that I can see how that might be uncomfortable for you, as you are very very public about it whenever you are subbing, as if the whole concept makes you uncomfortable... am I right?

[Arabia2 (doe)]

What is your opinion based on? A similar level of experience or just your gut instict about fairness?

Both.

If one player plays more then one civ it needs to be known, especially if it's permanent. Allies subbing for a few turns it's usually ok without notice, but I'd still prefer to have that. Most contact happens in pm anyway, but if the subbed player gone for good it needs to be known and also if it's subbed by other player who is already playing an other civ.

And Ottomans: I think none of us have any problem with you subbing the Zulus, actually we are grateful for that. The only thing is that it is better to known for several reasons.

[Robert]

The rule is there for exactly the hypothetical situations Arabia describes.
Of course usually under more realistic circumstances though, but that doesn't matter for the sake of the argument.

But the Turks are right that the (sub) thing doesn't work here b/c PYT doesn't update
So it's good indeed to re-confirm that it at least has to be posted here in the forum.

I agree with Turkey that it's not needed to exactly make clear who is subbing for who. Just stating that there is a sub is enough.
I personally always put (sub) behind my name when I'm subbing. (it can be seen at least in the login-screen if one briefly selects any civ) but well, the rules don't say that you have to make clear who is subbing.

[Robert]

Also what penalty would you propose for violation of this rule?

penalties are handed out by teachers to children.
I do not know how often you have played a board game with adults. But I have made many rules during those board game sessions, while we never handed out penalties. Adults usually just stick to the rules

[Robert]

@Russia: thanks for your explanation!

I can indeed see it on the pitboss server. It just caught my attention when I was scrolling through the list of players to see if any of them was online (I always check that before I pause the game, don't want to pause it while someone is busy)

[Arabia2 (doe)]

By the way: why don't we advertise that we are looking for sub(s) We could at least have a thread in the multiplaying section.

[France (DoE)]

France is playing for France. I have used a sub, not associated in anyway with this game, while I am traveling, which I will again be in two weeks time. The last time he played for me was in June. I have informed this thread when that happens.

I am NOT playing the Vikings turn. The Vikings player is. He just isn't posting much. He is still pi$$ed for being vilified for honoring the deal made with India by the previous Viking player, which IMHO was the right thing to do.

And Neandor is playing Neandor's turns. He is very busy with RL work, so doesn't have much time for story posting.

[Inca (DoE)]

So far, playing:
Natives
Inca
Aztecs
England
Vikings
France
Neandor
Rus
Turks
Israel
Arabia
India
Japan?

Need Subs:
China
Zulu

Unknown:
America
Mali

[Japan (DoE)]

I have been playing all my turns since I got my laptop back last month.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

I've pretty much made my arguments, so I will try to let it rest, but here is the notice that folks are complaining they didn't get

Maybe it's best if for now someone subs for the Zulu ... Please respond with your anonymous login.

... Regarding the Zulu: I have a potential sub already in my PM.
Waiting for a confirmation ... may cause some delays ...

... Anyway, there's a sub, he should play this turn, so all should be fine!

So as a result of this now my anonymity is also lost... so that's great

[Robert]

You could have logged in with the Zulu login
But I was aware that the Zulu were being subbed by another in-game civ, I had forgotten which civ though.

I know for a fact that America is being played by.... America
America was only subbed a couple of weeks ago, as we all know b/c it was advertised here.

[gpcii]

I have been invited to sub for China... I am interested if you folks would agree to it... I have 99 pages of reading to do here and am new to Pitboss but am willing to learn and eager to play...