Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

@ America- I sent you new peace request

@ Aztec - I think the way it works is you have to be the first to log out in previous turn in order to be first to move and DoW in the next turn. I remember this because this rule was enforced and stressed against me in the previous war. I said the same thing you did "I only logged in to look around etc., but I relented, as I was understanding there was no way for the other person to verify. In the end I accepted their argument and just agreed to have second move. I request now you do the same, or just wait until next turn to DoW if you want first move.

I especially insist, because the whole India-Japan turn order controversy robbed me of first move because I had to wait for that to be resolved to attack. It is very early in the turn now so the harm is minimal.

In any case, it may be a mute point after the reload since America may just accept peace.

Sorry for inconvenience. War is a messy business

[Aztecs (DoE)]

Even though this discussion is unnecessary,
I understand you are looking for a way out of this mess you've gotten yourself in..
You attack a military weak state with a surprise attack and then start to discuss rules when a stronger army comes to his aid.
You simply parked your troops within range of almost my entire army and navy.


On the rules:

03. Wartime Double Moves
a. Civilizations that are at war have to observe the turn order.
The turn order is set during the first turn of the war.

1) we are at war since this turn > so a double move is technically impossible
2) I played in the same order as last turn


@ RP: if you should decide anyway on a reload although these are valid points, make sure that you take a point in time AFTER the last move of the Ottomans (in the previous turn).
Then exactly the same will happen. Otherwise it will be a real game breaker..

[Russia (DoE)]

Azteca, you are reading (or at least posting) the rules very selectively

03. Wartime Double Moves
a. Civilizations that are at war have to observe the turn order. The turn order is set during the first turn of the war. If the invaded party played first in the turn before the war started, then the agressor must let him play first in the next turn as well before he can declare war on him.

[Aztecs (DoE)]

It does not apply here: as I played first..

[Russia (DoE)]

But played also last.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Aztec. Your moral feelings about the reload are separate issue right? It matters not whether I am smaller fighting larger etc., all that matters is I asked for reload and I am entitled to one in my understanding. Are you saying only the lesser nations have the privilege of requesting reloads?

And my point was that since you logged in after me, you should have the choice between playing after me, or waiting a turn for DoW so that you can move first this turn and then you can be first to DoW next turn. What you are asking for is a very selective reload to undo your login after me. That is exactly wrong, because your login after me was not the party foul. The party foul was the fact that you moved before me THIS turn. That was the foul, and the only thing that should be undone by a reload.

So what I request RP does is reload the current turn to a point before Aztecs moved and Aztecs must either wait for me to move and then DoW and move... or Then if they want first move, they can move first this turn but not DoW, and then DoW and move first NEXT turn... otherwise it will be a "gambreaker" for me.

Another thing to consider, is that I intended to offer, and did offer American peace and return of territory. This offer is not contingent on the reload, but with a reload, America could save Washington and get Miami back with no population loss by accepting my offer. Without a reload, my army will be trapped and we will have to raze Washington depending on the tactical situation. Plus Aztecs can't give Miami back because they are at war. So without reload America loses Miami and Washington. With a reload they could get back both.

So yes this issue is a game breaker, and I am asking Azteca, in the interest of the game to put aside their joy at punishing the evil Ottomans and approve the reload. If there is no more argument it will be better for America better for me, better for the game better for everyone. You can spank my naughty butt some other time

[Aztecs (DoE)]

I agree that the reload before would be the best for all parties interested.
BUT I find that this is actually a way of changing history after the fact, and that is in my opinion not in the spirit of the game.


STILL THE POINT IS:
I played my turn BEFORE you and
I did not double move (as I only logged in to see what has happened after you played your turn),
BUT hey if you insist you can get a reload AFTER you played your turn,
then you can be SURE I didn't reload.
But then exactly the same will happen as did happen..

PS. I am willing in the interest of America to sign that unconditional peace, but that is IC..


For other parties following this, his troops and his fleet got surprised by me, so the whole discussion about this is whether or not this happens..
(and on a more personal note: I am accused of doing a double move and I didn't and I can prove it..)

@Russia: I did not play last! (that is my whole point)

[Russia (DoE)]

Technically you played AFTER the Ottomans. Maybe you did not encounter many such disputes, but from my experience, if you intend to go at war, it is A MUST that you avoid any actions that may lead to possible dispute. I have even seen experienced pitbossers MISS the whole turn before declaring war. This way there is no possibility anyone can claim anything, but that is extreme example. The fact stays that between your 2 consecutive logins in 2 different turns the Ottomans did not logged in. And you declared war in the second.

There were examples in this game, where a written history had to be deleted because of a reload for double moving, so this will be no precedent. It is only messy, because the host is on vacation. Maybe you two interested parties must PM him, as I have found he gets very, very quick notice he have a PM and normally he reacts very quick.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

I make no accusations. I don't want personal feelings, and that's what accusation do. I want the game reloaded to the beginning of this turn, and I think I am entitled to request it based on the log, period. Accusations are irrelevant. Aztec does not need to prove anything and I make no accusations. Just please do the reload as I requested.

[Vikings (DoE)]

As a humble bystander for this war:

The Aztecs say they can prove that they did not double move. I say let them prove it before a reload is done, which effects everyone. If there was no double move then the Aztecs surprised the Ottomans. If a reload is done then the Ottomans know that the Aztecs are coming and "could" move in a way that precludes the surprise attack.

My opinion is that if there is proof that there was no double move then just let the game play on. The Ottomans got surprised and whatever may come, may come.

[Aztecs (DoE)]

@Vikings: sadly the proof needs a reload.

Reload after the Ottomans did their turn, I do not login until the next turn, play my turn as I did (so the original play order is kept) and then the proof is that then exactly happens what did happen:

the Ottomans get surprised, Miami is reconquered and his fleet of 6 galleons gets destroyed, with addtional losses of a cannon and a riffleman ..

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

@ Vikings - I make no accusations on Aztec. That is the purpose of following the order so there is no need to investigate or 'prove' anything. There is no need to talk about tile switches and behind the scenes movements and workers actions spider changes, and the myriad of things that effect when units are built upgraded etc. You are focusing on the one thing, ie the military victory and whether that is undone. I say forget about that. A reload request is legitimately made, and forget about accusations which may or may not be proven.

Technically you played AFTER the Ottomans. Maybe you did not encounter many such disputes, but from my experience, if you intend to go at war, it is A MUST that you avoid any actions that may lead to possible dispute. I have even seen experienced pitbossers MISS the whole turn before declaring war. This way there is no possibility anyone can claim anything, but that is extreme example. The fact stays that between your 2 consecutive logins in 2 different turns the Ottomans did not logged in. And you declared war in the second.

There were examples in this game, where a written history had to be deleted because of a reload for double moving, so this will be no precedent. It is only messy, because the host is on vacation. Maybe you two interested parties must PM him, as I have found he gets very, very quick notice he have a PM and normally he reacts very quick.

Russia captures the situation exactly. I did not attack at beginning of the turn and in fact waited a full turn to attack because I wanted first move, but the India/ Japan reload was not resolved and I wanted to avoid exactly the situation we have now, where a reload would occur after me attacking, so then I would be attacking a nation with foreknowledge that the attack was coming. Then there would be hard feelings and arguments about who moved or switched this and that etc, and arguments about accusations and honor and who believes who did what and when. Azteca is focused on defending honor and wants a reload to a point to prove that he could have not logged in after me taken the city anyway.

Essentially what you are asking is to treat your second log in as a mistake. But that is besides the point. I made a mistake too. I clicked to unload my Cannon into the city, but I also clicked to unload my Rifles off the Galleons into the city. But apparently the Rifles did not unload, as you only had to kill a Cannon to take Miami. If the Rifles had unloaded as I intended, you probably would not have taken the city who knows? Do I get a reload to fix my mistake since you want the reload to fix yours? Do you trust me that I really just accidentally left the Rifles on the boat? If not, then What about my honor in the face of being called a liar? Of course this is rhetorical, but do you see what I am saying? Forget about the 'proving' stuff and the hard feelings about 'accusations.' Just go by the log and reload to before Aztecs moved. The rest is just vanity.

So to avoid all that happening during the Japan reload controversy, I asked for the game to be paused, or for the reload to be done or the issue to be resolved, and I waited multiple turns to attack hoping it would get resolved so I could move first. And I did not log in because I was waiting. Meanwhile America again moved and the issue remained unresolved, leaving me in the unhappy position of having to quickly take my turn second, which in turn placed me in the position where the only time I could move last turn was in a quick few minutes before work, which of course makes play sloppy. (which may be why i missed that the Rifles didn't reload as I clicked them to.)

I understand your sensitivity to having your victory undone and having the game reloaded to before your attack, giving your enemy foreknowledge. I understand all too well,which is why I did not make the mistake of attacking before the Japan/India reload was resolved. All I want now is the same courtesy.

[Aztecs (DoE)]

I have made my point. In my opinion you are just tossing up a whole lot of smoke which confuses matters further.
I propose we pause the game and let a neutral party decide (Robert?).

[mzprox]

As a neutral observer my opinion is that you both have a good point, but I'd go with the Aztec's suggestion and reload the previous turn just before the Aztecs moved but this time they should not log in so they could start the next turn. This is the only way to avoid the double move without giving Ottomans time to prepare to a supposedly surprise attack. This is just one opinion, technically the ottomans are right too saying that the Aztecs made a mistake( by logging in) and should suffer the consequences.

[Russia (DoE)]

I agree that the host must decide and enforce his judgment.

And on another point, it is not that bad to mix a bit IC and OOC if the outcome will be better for all the parties involved and the good will triumph

Yes, the Aztecs took the Ottomans by surprise, but because of their triumph the Americans will suffer the most. Russia will personally benefit from a reload because of the peace that I was trying to make happen behind the scenes.
Peace which would not be possible otherwise.