Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[Russia (DoE)]

Unfortunately I was dealing with 2 very very strong paranoid people that didn't understand Israel at all and explained everything negatively.

Nope, you were dealing with one person, who I though very, very paranoid and angry at you and one person, who was looking at the big picture and wanted this issue settled as fast and problemless as possible. But your whole "I want to be your friend, those cowards have left me, I do want to give you something, because I feel guilt" was as you said blabla. While you were talking to me, at the same time you were moving catapults to Neandor. What you want - to make myself stupid only to believe you? And when I told you what you can make to vanish my doubts, you did not did it. What else - ok, I remember how the Israeli were servile to the Arabs and the Turks and then challenged them with Jerusalem. You made a gamble. Twice. One you won. And once you lost. You lost Jerusalem. And since then you are trying to get it back. But this tactics of doubling the bet each time and stop when you win once, wont work, just like in the real world

[Israel (DoE)]

The culture - it makes gap from the capture. Oh, I just remember the infamous words of Maximus in Gladiator: "The frost, it sometimes makes the blade stick." Oh, what a movie...

And it is not 50% of your army its about 15-20%, stop making drama. Even not 50% of your canons - you got extremely lucky twice at 95% and 96% and thats why you still have cannons at all, despite heavily damaged.

Not drama, just responding to what I understood from what you said.
I'm glad it's not that bad.
My fault that I didn't took the gap in mind....

Weird, in SP games it doesn't work like that I think...

[Israel (DoE)]

You are thinking from a gamer POV, not from a character point of view.

Why do you expect Israel suddenly wanting to be friends with Russia/Turkey after everything that happened?
In no diplo-war you can expect your enemy to turn into your friend if they have to give things up to become you friend.
If you want to become friends then end the war without conditions. (like how Turkey and me made peace initially, that was a step into the right direction).

It makes no sense to make peace with a lot of demands and then think that the other party will not want to get back at you.
Of course I would try to get back Bethlehem later, like I still want to get back Jerusalem.
And of course I would always have wanted to get back Ekron after I offered it. And when I gave Sidon to the Mali it was only with the thought in mind that I would try to get it back later. What else do you expect?

And that's why we could not make peace. You did not only want to make me pay, you also wanted me to accept that I had to pay and would never get it back.
That's just silly.
All you can do is accept payments and defend what you got. (= defend Bethlehem with huge stacks).
If you want ensure peace then don't ask huge terms.

And why I prefer to give up Bethlehem above paying 6000 gold? (apart from the hope to regain control over Bethlehem later)
1. I could immediately go on as an independant nation. All debts are paid.
2. when I refused the 6000 gold I didn't know yet that the Mali and the Russians would also invade me. Russia didn't declare war after our first attack on Turkey. How could I know?

rule of thumb:
- friendship = giving back everything the other civ lost (end WW2)
- making demands and especially territorial demands: secure your bordres b/c they will attack you again one day. (end WW1)

[Russia (DoE)]

How the hell is that possible? I moved it away 2 tiles from Tel Aviv...did the cultural borders vanish with the fall of Tel Aviv so that you could move over the roads to my units?

The culture - it makes gap from the capture. Oh, I just remember the infamous words of Maximus in Gladiator: "The frost, it sometimes makes the blade stick." Oh, what a movie...

And it is not 50% of your army its about 15-20%, stop making drama. Even not 50% of your canons - you got extremely lucky twice at 95% and 96% and thats why you still have cannons at all, despite heavily damaged.

[Israel (DoE)]

Russia, you only reason from your own point of view.
You never place yourself into Israel's shoes. You have all those reasons of why I should have paid you the money. But those are all from your own POV.

I had reasons why I thought that Russia would never invade Israel with the Turks. Apparently I was wrong.
Negotiating and diploing means that you try to understand your enemy. You still think that from my POV it would have been better if....
Well to start with, when we were negotiating I had no idea that both Russia AND Mali would invade me as well. I thought it would be just the Turks.

[Russia (DoE)]

- You failed to answer my questions: I did offer you very reasonable peace terms, not in the last place Bethlehem. You choose to destruct Israel anyway.

Until you start to act like someone, who truly wants to show good will and be spared, I cant see how we can have peace. Your offer was not reasonable even to yourself - why should you give me Bethlehem, which makes about 100 GPT for eternity which will make me a 6000 in 60 turns, but you will not accept to give me 6000 gold in the next 30 turns? 30 turns delay of giving 3000 gold? But still losing your best city after your capitol? No way. You did not meant this to last. You were offering me this city between you and the French only to lure my armies there and smash them in the desert once again. You even did not offerd it to me - you offered it to the Turks. And now you are looking for sympathy - see the evil Russians they are pure vandals and heartless barbarians. No we are not heartless. But we are not brainless too.

[Israel (DoE)]

Negotiations were always very hard b/c I was always accused of being untrustable.
Unfortunately the Israelian storyline and roleplaying was never understand.

That's not a problem. What happens IC is IC. All your excuses in your last post are valid b/c they're IC reasons and those are always valid.
Unfortunately I was dealing with 2 very very strong paranoid people that didn't understand Israel at all and explained everything negatively. Again: that is valid and acceptable.
In the end it doesn't change the fact that Israel is totally cripled now, gang banged by the Russians, the Turks and the Mali. (And the Arabs).

Unfortunately you only wanted to see Israel as an untrustworthy civilization player. Never in the role it was playing.
If you would have offered Jerusalem in exchange of all of Israel I would have accepted most probably (though I never wanted to put it on the table myself)

Israel was dealt with as one deals with a nation in a ordinary MP game, not as a role playing civ that tells a story.
Neither when Jerusalem was razed, nor now.

[Russia (DoE)]

- The question why England is important doesn't really matter. It still is important. For the record: I do consider what happened to the English over the top as well.

No, it does matter. It absolutely does matter. You are in the situation you are in now, not because you are weak and backward, you are here because of your actions, bluffing and overplaying. I asked you to prove me you really, really do want to befriend me. The money was a sign of good will. Once I feel you are my friend - fo you really think I will refuse you some money if you need them for teching? Do you think giving you some money is something big for me, after I wage hell of a war just because I do believe in that old-fashioned honor thing? In fact, when the Vikings attacked England, our deal was over - and never got re-signed. I was absolutely ok to say - sorry, but we are going to suffer if we decide to support you against the most powerful and advanced nation in the world. No, I did not said that. Neither Turkey did that. So, do you believe those money was something big for me?

[Russia (DoE)]

- The Mali made the worst backstab b/c they attacked just at the moment that I was already in huge problems. It was an attack purely based on opportunism to take advantage of our problem.

Maybe my English isnt good enough or in my native language "back-stabbing" have slightly different meaning, but I did not agreed at first. Now when you explain it that way - to stab someone in the back who is facing somewhere else is the literate meaning. In my language backstabber=traitor, so you have to have trust in someone and he to betray your trust so he to be back-stabber. Anyway, I got your point.

[Russia (DoE)]

- You offered me indeed 350gpt for 10 turns + 100gpt for 20 turns instead of losing Ekron. I then choose to give Ekron. Giving up Ekron was then not accepted. I had to both give up Ekron AND pay the money. So if there was bargaining then it was only increasing what I had to pay. Your failure is that you are not trying to understand Israel first.

You are interpreting here. The refusal of Turkey to take Erkon for peace with them because they just wanted quiet invisible deal. You made it a propaganda again and then you asked me to plead on your behalf with the Turks. WTF? How I could turn against the will of my allies to protect you, who betrayed them? Then you said you just want a peace and are looking for lasting friendship. Then the Turks told me you are secretly moving catapults to Neandor to upgrade. When asked, you told me you dont believe us and you want to be sure of your safety. Then you said you want to make us believe you once again. And that you want so strong to prove me your friendship, but you have nothing to give to me right now. Then I said I will have to think about some way of lasting peace between you and Turkey, as you called them Bloodthirsty barbarians, who will come and come to hurt you. I made quite diplomatic effort (15 PMs sent and more than 20 received in 3 days to and from Turkey) to make them not attack you anymore. They did not believed you. I came to this way of ensuring your word and compensating Turkey for they not hating you any more. I told you the deal and you said you preffer to lose Erkon. But Erkon was not anymore issue.

Just then I realised, that you made me argue with my own ally on your behalf and I am not gaining anything from this and I still have to keep army to watch out for you when you decide to make war with Turkey again - you told me you will never give up the hope for Jerusalem (btw, you did said me this "For Jerusalem" and I though to myself then - the poor Israeli have lost his mind - what Jerusalem - Jerusalem is gone for 2000 years now. Maybe he had in mind Bethleem - I am thinking of Bethleem as the Jerusalem of this game. And this "For Jerusalem" came right after we (you and me) discussed how we will act against the French. So then I though - he was reffering for his old hate with France - they stole land from the Africans and they made war centuries ago.)

So I decided you are disgusted from France and Neandor throwing you away and want to redeem yourself to us. And I told you the price. Without hate, without any unnesessary bad feelings.

[Israel (DoE)]

- I paid 1600 for cannons, you requested 6000 for peace.
- Investing in tools is a lot more fun, even if you may lose those tools in war, then paying a long time for nothing in return.
- Of course I understand why you wanted that money. I fear that you never understood how small a nation Israel was and how it was already behind in many things.
- You lowered the 400 to 350 b/c I simply was not making more then 350 at most at that moment. You did not lower the 100gpt deal, it was first just without an end date. Then an end date of 20 turns was sticked on it.
- You offered me indeed 350gpt for 10 turns + 100gpt for 20 turns instead of losing Ekron. I then choose to give Ekron. Giving up Ekron was then not accepted. I had to both give up Ekron AND pay the money. So if there was bargaining then it was only increasing what I had to pay. Your failure is that you are not trying to understand Israel first.
- Yes you told me what the 100gpt was for. I just said that it was added upon the 350gpt a turn later. First it was not there, then suddenly it was there as well. First it was just Ekron, then it was Ekron + 350gpt, then it was Ekron + 350gpt + 100gpt.
Now you have Ekron razed, Nain, Sidon gone to Mali, Ai about to fall, Tel Aviv, and still you want more.
- The Mali made the worst backstab b/c they attacked just at the moment that I was already in huge problems. It was an attack purely based on opportunism to take advantage of our problem. The fact that our deals were ancient doesn't matter. If you see a person being robbed and smashed on the floor, and the robbers run away and you go to him to pull out his wallet, forgotten by the robbers, then that's a very very terrible act. That's more or less what the Mali did.
- The question why England is important doesn't really matter. It still is important. For the record: I do consider what happened to the English over the top as well.
- You failed to answer my questions: I did offer you very reasonable peace terms, not in the last place Bethlehem. You choose to destruct Israel anyway.

You were, as the big power in this game, not trying to keep the game fun for Israel.
You even tried to trow as much as possible against Israel, Zulu, Mali, Arabia, rifles, etc. We never even had a chance.
And then you only wanted peace at your own terms. Terms that would take away once again the fun of the game from me. Hitting enter as a matter of fact for 20 turns (more or less).
You never looked at it from my point of view. And still you are not doing that. You are giving all these excuses and reasons and blabla, but the facts are clear. you have annihilated Israel while there was no reason for that. There were plenty of options to keep Israel alive, but the only option you wanted Israel to take was to let Israel fund your war.

And WTF, is my army 50% gone as well?
How the hell is that possible? I moved it away 2 tiles from Tel Aviv...did the cultural borders vanish with the fall of Tel Aviv so that you could move over the roads to my units?

That sucks, I didn't saw that coming....
Then Israel is even more cripled then I already thought. I then can't even defend myself anymore.
Well, congrats on your military skills there then. And stupid for me that I didn't saw that coming

[Russia (DoE)]

WOOOW - what a post I just wrote!

And I felt like this is only a touching to all the points I wanted to address.

May I suggest: There is much to much OOC going on about the game. I feel regularly like this thread has become the place the actual diplomacy occurs. The other thread is becoming eye candy at best.

Yes, a lot of diplomacy is happening not in the story thread, but I see nothing wrong in debating here too. I feel this entertaining almost as I did reading (and sometimes writing) the stories.

requiring the investment of weeks/months of time, if one or more of the players is driven to the point of unhappiness with the game, the other players should consider that they have perhaps failed in some basic aspect to understand the point of such a game.

Can you please explain?

[Russia (DoE)]

Oh, I just read everything and have a lot to say, but it will be all night long (not that I dislike the idea of civ/history related chat all night long... oh, how I miss smoking in nights like this...)

I can handle it very well, though I do have a need to express this though.

I can understand you.

I will just put few points:

Your last offer was outragious, it's a bummer that you don't see that. And that's maybe where the problem is. Neither Turkey nor Russia is able to place yourself into my shoes. Paying 100% of my full economy (all cities on commerce) to Turkey and then 100gpt to Russia for 20 turns effectively means that my economy is totally idle for 20 turns. After 20 turns I'm completely behind everything.

Nothing outrageous I see here - I told you already - if you are willing to pay these same money for cannons to feed my cossacks instead of paying for peace, then this is what you choose, not me. Also, these money will be used for upgrades, bribes, or paying back some loans I got. I will not say details, but I owe the world times more than those mere 4000 gold. And this sum was this, because I wanted you to not be able to upgrade, nor feed my enemies. And I wanted these money to act like investment from you - if you invested already in our alliance 4000 gold, it may make you not to leave it so easy. I am not greedy. I can say with pure heart that Russia was way way better if stayed out of the war. I have lost about few tens of gold because I had to wage this war. BTW, while we in Europe are fighting, this gives the wise leaders in the other regions of the world, who decided to stay neutral huge favor.

going gold for the benefit of your own civ can't be compared to going gold for the benefit of another civ.
It's ridiculous to compare that.

Really? If you lose all this gold in upgraded units and lose those units? How this benefits you? One cannon costs 400 gold. Is it feels better to you to lose 10 cannons instead of give those money and have problemless future?

And why you say I did not bargain? I did lowered the duration of the 100 GPT deal. I accepted 350 GPT instead of 400. I did accepted you to keep Erkon/New Meggido. I did accepted you to even not close borders with the French. I was concerned to save you the fear of possible French revenge if I move out of Israel my armies. I told you I dont trust you and I need something you to invest, not to say now "Ok, we are friends" and after 5 or 15 turns when I dont expect you to say: "you were pressing and treatening me, thats only why I told you we are friends. Now I have army and I am strong and I will punish you."

Suddenly another 100gpt was added without nothing happening.

Those 100 GPT I told you what are for - this was your contribution as a friend of Russia. You put dent in my plans and killed quite a number of Russian soldiers, so these 2000 were compensation for Russia.

The most terrible backstab in this game came from Mali, btw.

As far as I know, you dont had any agreements with Mali. And why they attacking you would be a backstab - they are after their small goals. It is shame for France that they threatened with war Mali, after they had NAP with them.

Yes, what happened to England was outragious as well. But England is still an important nation. If I hear the numbers of armies you can bring up, your ships. You're still a power to deal with.

If England is still important nation, it is MAINLY because she has friends. Whithout her friends, England would be some minor nation with people scattered all around the globe and persuaded from everywhere. Where are your friends now? How you can still be on France's side when they deserted you so outrageous?

Your suffering is a product of your own choosing. You choose to enter this war and got beat, yet you seem to refuse to accept the reasonable consequences that come from that.

This! I told you once, will repeat it again what we the Slavs say about this: "When the stallions are kicking at each- other, the mules have no business there."

I may find some fun in trying to destroy your stack now.

You can have hard time destroying our stack, as your cannons are half destroyed (along with some good 6-7 of your muskets, half damaged at 0.7 or so by the cossacks. Our stack advancing to you is almost twice as stronger now because I did upgraded whole bunch of outdated Turkish and Arabian units to ridiculous rifles and cossacks. Another whole rifles army is coming your way trough Caspian Gates. Other army is moving from Greece by sea. Ai will fall the next turn. Those armies from macemen and knights will become rifles and cossacks too.

I dont think it is time for you to stop talking, but it is time for you to stop acting in rage and hate against us, but think how you to lead your nation out of the disaster you put her in.

[Native America (DoE)]

May I suggest: There is much to much OOC going on about the game. I feel regularly like this thread has become the place the actual diplomacy occurs. The other thread is becoming eye candy at best.

Having played numerous other games (most especially EU2) in multi-player mode, requiring the investment of weeks/months of time, if one or more of the players is driven to the point of unhappiness with the game, the other players should consider that they have perhaps failed in some basic aspect to understand the point of such a game. I'm not saying they have here; sometimes it's simply the outlook of the aggrieved player that is at fault. And it should be understood that "measured war" is not intended to mean "balance of power on all sides." But two players who feel hard-done by in the same area of the world should be a tip-off that there is possibly a group of overly-aggressive players who should have reshaped their storyline to reign in their efforts, leaving less bitterness in its wake.

But regardless of whether this is true or not, the time to discuss this is at the end of the game, in reflection, when it isn't impacting ongoing diplomacy. Now, if you want to get your point across, weave it into the story.

[Israel (DoE)]

Somebody stop me talking.