Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

I have to agree with Russia on this. My offer to you was simple and clear (1)give up Ekron (2) Dont talk to anyone about it and (3) I give you a settler as compensation...You rejected the deal by invoving Russia and then the world community. So it is pure deception to keep saying "I accepted the terms but then Turkey rejected for OOC reasons"

You keep complaining that the game is not fun for you because you are losing, but you are still the highest score of all African nations. Can Mali and Zulu complain that they are not having fun because they are so low on the list? If everyone thought like that, ie "the game is not fun unless I am in the top-ten" then we wouldnt have a game.

And If you want peace, then why not offer your unconditional surrender and accept terms or ask for measured war? Zulu were going to be smashed by Mali and they accepted Mali's demand for Zulus largest and best city by far. But now the Zulu are better off because they ended the war by just accepting Mali's terms. Mongolia accepted peace with China... Why can't you do the same?

The only possible reason, is because you still want to fight and you still think you can win and retake your cities. That's why you dont want to accept terms or take measured war, because then you wont be able to keep fighting. I will try to resist making anymore of my substantive arguments OOC because I think that is what is truly against the spirit of the diplogame, as Native Americans said, turning the organization thread into the real place where the diplomacy happens instead of the Story thread as it should be.

So since you obviously want to keep fighting, why not use the Story thread and make your petitions to the world community IC. It is a little contradictory to complain that "This is a diplogame" and "Turkey refused my offer for OOC reasons" while you try to use all these OOC statements and arguments to influence IG situations and IC world opinion. For example Inca has instituted an "investigation" into the war because of all your OOC complaining. You can't have it both ways... You cant manipulate the situation with all this OOC talk and complaints while simultaneously complaining that others are not respecting the "spirit of the diplogame." If you want others to respect the spirit of the diplogame, you should first respect it yourself... make your arguments IC in the story thread

[Russia (DoE)]

In fact we even had already given in to initial demands.

Initial demands? No, you did not given to the initial demands of Turkey - they wanted Erkon removed as a treat to them, and you rejected their ultimatum, reinforcing the city and switching to nationalism and you did not kept the confidential clause.

it's against the definitions of diplo gaming: "Nations won't be annihilated or broken in such a way that the fun is gone for a player."

This becomes too subjective here. Why is this double standard?

I must say our demands are absolutely reasonable IC. Your refusal is OOC. And now you just try to gather sympathy OOC to use for IG advantage. If you do desire peace above all IC, you will just take our terms and be spared, live and let live. If you OOC think that the current situation is over the top, just initiate Measured War Rule. I will vote YES for it, as it is OOC. I can OOC understand how you feel being defeated (in what was I can say fairly even war), but I cant understand how IC a leader of a nation will see that a disaster comes at his people and still bargaining and refusing peace, being it over what he thinks is fair price. Maybe you though you can win in the war? But then why you are weeping if you are losing the war if you choose to wage war, thinking you will win it?

You cant swear and threaten to raze our cities merciless and then weep when we capture yours, right?

You say you wanted peace. You did not. If you wanted peace, you would have taken ANY deal and try to show your good will about me. And just then you would have seen for yourself what a friend Russia is and how generous and forgiving I can be once I see someone is honest with me. You speak of friendship and vassalizing to Russia. What means "vassalizing" if you are even reluctant to close borders with my enemies, not to mention to actually fight for me, as a friend and an ally would do willingly? And you are at the very same time subsidized by my enemies and they are arming you? While you offer your loyalty to me in Tel Aviv, you are receiving French and Neandor Cannons and grenadiers in Bethlehem!!! WTF? How you have the eyes to come here and ask for better treatment?

You NEVER accepted the simplest of my demands to depict the French and the Neandors as a coward and tell the world how they have deserted you. What to speak of the other terms... What logic have this? To me this is not diplo-spirit - you obviously have OOC ties with those guys, or you IC are devoted to them unconditionally, which automatically excludes the possibility I just to believe your promises for friendship and leave you to gather your army and when I leave with my armies you to strike at my ally Turkey. I told you - to me, Diplo-gaming must also have logic. The Diplo-spirit does not means to be feigning. Excuse me for winning the war IG and not simulating blindness about your double-play and true intentions IC.

Peace clauses will be dispatched right after Israel capitulates.

[Israel (DoE)]

but you can't blame Russia/Turks for continuing to march.

Yes, I can, because it's against the definitions of diplo gaming: "Nations won't be annihilated or broken in such a way that the fun is gone for a player."
Israel was not an unreasonable nation that just went zealoat and wanted war at all costs, we wanted peace above all. In fact we even had already given in to initial demands. They were not forced to take our capital. It was their choice to do it. And that's against the definition of diplo gaming. Israel was willing to compromise and to give into demands of our enemy. Just not all.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Sorry to see Vikings go

[France (DoE)]

I agree. Thanks for the nuance.

While it was certainly reasonable for you to reject their offer, it is also reasonable to expect that Russia/Turks wouldn't just sit around and wait for you to get your troops in position. I know it sucks to lose your capitol, it really, really does, and I hope it'll be returned to you in any peace deal (unlike peace deals offered to me), but you can't blame Russia/Turks for continuing to march.

Earth to England! As I said above, I offered you a peace deal that returned your capitol. I did not get any response. Do I need to post the PM's here to refresh your memory? Sheesh. Someone mentioned about Israel's posting simply looking for symapthy. A couple of yours lately are in the same vein.

Why didn't you ever get back to me? I know you raised my offer with the Vikings, as he mentioned it to me. So what gives?

[Inca (DoE)]

And BTW, when war began you had 800 pts. You have about 700 pts now. When you are down to 600 pts, only then would you have an even remotely legitimate argument that you lost 25% of your empires value.

This is not an appropriate measure of lost quality of a civ. So much of a score is in tech, which doesn't disappear.

Hi dear FRIENDS/Allies/Enemies,

I am sorry but i will have to plug out from Civ IV and DOE. Being having some issues with my wife over it during the last few years lol.

I guess we guys always have to do the compromises.

Anyway I am sorry to be leaving at such an important stage for the game.

Now many of you know me very well, you know that I am a loyal ally/friend in each game i play:

I ask that either France or Germany subs for my civ, I want the vikings to continue to be part of the ACE alliance, thus i want a ACE member to continue to sub for me, use Money/Units all i own to help the ACE. If i had continued to play i would help/contribute/assist with all i can my allies.

I want all Vikings matters to be decided by my alliance. I put my civ's faith into their hands.


This game was a big part of me

Many of you will understand my actions I hope.

sorry to hear, Vikings. Good luck with RL.

[England (DoE)]

One thing I should nuance a bit;
- the offer Russia made to Israel was not unreasonable
- Israel rejecting it made Israel not unreasonable either.

I agree. Thanks for the nuance.

While it was certainly reasonable for you to reject their offer, it is also reasonable to expect that Russia/Turks wouldn't just sit around and wait for you to get your troops in position. I know it sucks to lose your capitol, it really, really does, and I hope it'll be returned to you in any peace deal (unlike peace deals offered to me), but you can't blame Russia/Turks for continuing to march.

[Israel (DoE)]

I can't play right now, it's a busy day for me. I hoped I could play now but I have to go already.

[Israel (DoE)]

One thing I should nuance a bit;
- the offer Russia made to Israel was not unreasonable
- Israel rejecting it made Israel not unreasonable either.

I think that we both are too extreme in this debate on this.
My point is that I think that Israel has been trying to make peace and was not stubborn in a zealoat war that should never end. And thus I feel like that 'unreasonable' exception in the rules does not apply to Israel. We really wanted peace.

But I have gone too far by saying that the Russians were unreasonable. They weren't either.
I do not blame the Russians and the Turks for attacking me and hurting me either. They had good reasons and I just got what I sowed.

I just think that I got too much to keep the game fun for me. And all I did, how deep my betrayal may have been, it was all in character and in an attempt for me to play a certain role.

[Russia (DoE)]

OK, I was hoping to make my turn now and leave France the rest of the timer, considering Turkey will find internet or get back at home, but it seems it have to play in the night again.

Bye for now guys.

As a bottom line, I can say this is maybe the best pitboss I ever played in terms of in-depth and satisfaction.

[Russia (DoE)]

Well, I think a post-mortem of this game is crucial when the game is over and for the health of diplo gaming; plus India's idea for sharing knowledge

Yes, it is brilliant idea, absolutely needed and I will enjoy it as the cherry on top of the cake.

but basically we should all feel good is the thing I've learnt (regardless of some losses) and clearly that is not the case here.

Yes, the Israeli are already starting making me wonder why is all this about. I agree this is just a game, and it is supposedly to be played more in friendly spirit instead of pure competitive one, but the game have some logic too. It SHOULD have logic. For me, I've been acting all in the logic and spirit of the game. Yes, you might say I am looking only from my POV, but honestly, I try to look from your POV too and cant see something to make me like your stance IC.

OOC, I know what is to be defeated and I can blame you for your feelings (despite being somewhat irrational, as your situation is direct consequence of some very straight-forwarded decissions you made yourself.)

[Russia (DoE)]

Oh, come on! It is not even "Strong vs the Weak!" You had all the force you needed to defeat us! You are part of the strongest military group on the Earth! I start to think the Turks are right and you are just making noise and propaganda to make people feel sympathy for you!

You say that what was done to England was over the top. And yet you are supporting invariably the Vikings and the French who did this to them. Not to mention the French razed all the Turkish cities which they captured without any word on that. They was driven out from whole CONTINENT!

And when asked to stop support them, you stall us with negotiations and promisses, call them cowards and evil, but in secret you are still cooperating with them and risking your whole nation on their behalf!!! Where is the diplo here? What kind of diplomacy is this? How you expect us to treat you and your intentions?

[Germany (DoE)]

Well, I think a post-mortem of this game is crucial when the game is over and for the health of diplo gaming; plus India's idea for sharing knowledge (sorry I have not responded to this yet but best after the game I think and I busy like hell now)

We need to look at the RULES v GOOD FORM v EXCITING WARS IN DIPLO.

* DA hurt real bad (could have been Neander - it was a knife edge that the chose to attack the DA and not Neander)
* Israel hurt real bad
* Many less experienced players not really keeping up with the power players
* Mongolia hurt very badly early on
* PLUS the problem of players leaving without saying and not leaving instructions or whether they need a sub etc etc (Vikings left a clear brief so that is good on them) - the host shouldn't have to monitor every civ in this regard.

Just a few quick thoughts for later on... but basically we should all feel good is the thing I've learnt (regardless of some losses) and clearly that is not the case here.

[Israel (DoE)]

Yes, no need for the Vikings to leave.
I am just continueing the game, no pause needed, no delay or anything.
Just discussing here how far diplogaming should go in terms of the strong vs the weak.

[Germany (DoE)]

I have zero time to participate in any arguments but I do encourage folks to try to stay in the game if at all possible. Of course RL and health comes first.