Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[Russia (DoE)]

this attack and utter destruction of the civ is over the top, in my opinion.

Utter destruction? All I have asked Israel was to side with me and to assure me about their good intentions. They decided to take their chances. Am I to blame for this? OK, tell me - what would you have done at my place? But honestly.

Heck, they have a stack of 25 SOTL's blockading my coast now.

Really? Well, Israel have stack of 10 cannons and 30 other units. And? England lost their capitol. Israel did too.

a 5 on 3 fight

And I am under no illusions that the English attack on the British Isles and the Russo-Turkish attack on Israel are not in some way related.

said the one, who attacked England which was already overrun by the most advanced and powerful nation in the world.

And while you have gained from this war - you got your army to Number 1, you took 2 major cities and intend to keep them, I got nothing. Only huge debts.

[Israel (DoE)]

Oh, not to mention that I simply offered to capitulate and become your vassal.
That's the biggest sign that I accepted defeat and wanted to accept your reign.

[Aztecs (DoE)]

Come on guys, this constant back and forth ain't much fun to read..

It IS a game, so get even within the game..

or write a good story..

and even the one on the loosing end can have some tricks in his sleeve..

[Israel (DoE)]

And for a very unrelated record, Germany did not have to pay war reparations after WWII.
The article you linked to concerned all axis except Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Peace_Treaties,_1947)

quote:
"The victorious wartime Allied powers (principally the USA, USSR, UK, France and Canada) negotiated the details of treaties with Italy, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, and Finland"

The list you quoted has nothing to do with Germany.
Not that this matters to our dispute, it just had to be straightened

[Israel (DoE)]

Come on guys, this constant back and forth ain't much fun to read..

It IS a game, so get even within the game..

or write a good story..

and even the one on the loosing end can have some tricks in his sleeve..

I'm writing stories, waiting for Russia to continue my story on the invasion of the Sahnedrin council by Russian armies.
But you're right, I have said my thing. Too bad that people can't just say: "Ok, we'll keep that in mind next time" but just want to justify themselves and their actions for 100%.

But it's only a game, and that's why I'm just continueing it.
In fact I'm already enjoying it again, despire the fact that Israel is a worthless nation. The stories are only getting more and more interesting. So far I'm doing quiet well in retelling Israels history

[Russia (DoE)]

Giving up Ekron is definitely a way to compromise

I think they were all size one cities. Nothing more than outposts. I am not going to hold on to them. That makes no sense either from a diplo perspective or a game mechanics perspective.)

This was not the case here. Israel was accepting all kinds of peace, except that very expensive one you offered. Israel even made many reasonable counter offers.

Reasonable to you, what reason there is in offering 1 city in exchange of the return of 4 other and call this final offer without possible negotiating?

And why do I have double standards?
I have applied these standards many times in earlier games to my own enemies when I was the big civ. Allies in former games can testify how I always insisted on balanced wars, stepped out of alliances b/c I believed they were too big.

Said the one, who allied with the two aggressors of England for NOTHING! Saying you think what happened to England was way over the top and then supporting the guys who did that is double standard.

The civ is supposed to compromise, accept deals, etc.

You keep missing the main point - you did nothing to convince me you want to befriend me. Only tricks, stalling and threats. Even now you speak like someone who is not ready to make peace.

Gangbanging another civ if he doesn't comply to ones wishes is easy

Everyone in the Axis knew about our DEFENSIVE agreement with England and Turkey. They did declared war to England no mater of this. So, they attack their neighbor without a good reason (the Vikings reason was they never talked to them and they had no chance of having colonies! Well, they were offered most of a whole continent, for God's sake!) And then Russia is the bad that wants to keep their word and fights against the enemies of my friends? You decided to side with France and you are still siding with them, no matter they left you alone and they did something you condemn as something over the top. Where are your reasons? Where is the Diplo-spirit?

[Russia (DoE)]

Oh, not to mention that I simply offered to capitulate and become your vassal.
That's the biggest sign that I accepted defeat and wanted to accept your reign.

Will cite myself when you dont bother to read my posts or just ignore my reasons and repeat your statements:

You speak of friendship and vassalizing to Russia. What means "vassalizing" if you are even reluctant to close borders with my enemies, not to mention to actually fight for me, as a friend and an ally would do willingly? And you are at the very same time subsidized by my enemies and they are arming you? While you offer your loyalty to me in Tel Aviv, you are receiving French and Neandor Cannons and grenadiers in Bethlehem!!! WTF? How you have the eyes to come here and ask for better treatment?

[Russia (DoE)]

After World War II, according to the Potsdam conference held between July 17 and August 2, 1945, Germany was to pay the Allies US$20 billion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_reparations

[Israel (DoE)]

Which was official indeed.
But in return the Germans got the Marshall plan reparations:

The experience of the post–World War I reparations led to the post–World War II solution, where winning powers were supposed to take reparations in machines and movable goods from the defeated nations, as opposed to money. Moreover, policies like the Marshall Plan emphasized shared economic development of the Western European states (removing much of what critics saw as the incentives giving rise to World War I) rather than punishment of the former Axis powers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_reparations

[Russia (DoE)]

So far I'm doing quiet well in retelling Israels history

Remember Israel did not betrayed Germany leading to their utter defeat in Africa in the real history

And you are not the only one who withdraws from alliances thinking they are too strong. I did left China against Mongolia only few days after this started and signed lasting peace with Mongolia. I was also the one (with Neandor) who helped Mongolia when she was crippled in the beginning of the game.

[Israel (DoE)]

Russia, that's all IC detail.
What matters is is I was not a zealoat nation that wasn't willing to give in at all.

I can blame myself that we as players who defined the diplo rules overtime didn't make that clear in the definition.
But once again, that exception was put in to make sure that zealoat civs could just be handled well. In earlier versions of the rule that 'exception' wasn't even there. It was simple: 'don't annihilate civs or take the fun away from them', till we had to deal with the Maya in BtP. They just refused to sign peace at all and hardly played their turns. They even refused peace when they got all their cities in return and did not have to pay anything. Then we agreed that in such a case the war can continue.

[Israel (DoE)]

And in response to Israel as a part of other pacts (which is in fact IC as well), Israel is in fact playing a very isolationisitic game. We just care about ourselves. We have no idea what happens in the outside world. When we saw an opportunity to betray the Turks and get Jerusalem back, we just jumped on it.

It's not a double standard, well, it didn't feel like. France was being attacked by the Tukish/Russian alliance.
Having said that, I do feel sorry for not standing up for England when he was hitted hard. I remember thinking like: "Wow, that's too hard!" but just was too lazy to say anything about it. I also was at that moment a bit losely connected to the game.
Now I know that England right now has 25 SOL's alone I do not feel really sorry for them. Apparently the game is far from over for them and they are still a huge power.

But yes, Not standing up for England back then was definitely not my best moment.

[Israel (DoE)]

Remember Israel did not betrayed Germany leading to their utter defeat in Africa in the real history

Good point
But once again, the Israelian betrayal on the Ottomans (IC) was only a response to the Turkish betrayal on the Israelians that costed us Jerusalem.

[Russia (DoE)]

OK, if we are talking OOC, you reffered to "We agreed that the war can continue" Who are "We"? If this is some independent court and they say what happens to you is because Russia and Turkey are acting unreasonable, I will of course obey the judgment. But if they judge it is you who are acting unreasonable, then what?

And if there is no such special diplo-game court of justice, but instead those are we - all the players in DoE who must put the high standards of the diplo-gaming, I can hardly see anyone except your ally France who is supporting your position vocally.

What is happening to Israel is happening for a reason and was so easily to be avoided by you.

[Russia (DoE)]

When we saw an opportunity to betray the Turks and get Jerusalem back, we just jumped on it.

Ah,so you jump on offers from France, but when Russia offers you the city which stays on the place of your ex-holly city, you threaten me. Thats just .... what to say...

Dont get me wrong, but if you agree to our IC arguments, then why dont you IC capitulate and there will be no OOC issue with your civ hurt any more.

And dont get me wrong on this either - it is a game, and I immensely enjoy it. The games have logic and have rules. Moral too. If all the other players tell me that I am crossed the line on those, I will rethink my POV on this case. If no, I will just enjoy the excellent stories and diplogaming. FYI I did voted for Israel with 5's after your betrayal in Africa, despite I was mad at you.