Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Some stuff I meant to respond to earlier:

+1 for the spirit, America. Always liked your stories and your attitude btw.

Agreed!. Frankly, I think late-game Americans were one of the best players in the game as far as Diplogaming was concerned.

OTOH, at least this cant be denied to the Ottomans - where they set foot, the stories immediately thrive!

Thanks Russia for the recognition I tried really hard to be a good villain, the civ everybody loved to hate, and to keep the game exciting and fun.

Haha, and agreed about the Ottomans; their attack totally spiced things up

Im glad you appreciated that part at least

With every civ in the world cheering the Japanese for turning my pathetic empire into a bottom level civ.

In all fairness to India, this is exactly what was going on, even I was helping Japan a little at the beginning and it was because as I said before, India was Fodder. India wanted to be independantly strong, and consequently, they had no alliance that was willing to go to bat for them. We all just saw them as something to fight over, not fight for.

As the Ottoman player said, he had nothing, yet with nothing he managed to field a strong army to invade America with? Really what happened was that you gave him a huge army after the war, am I right?

Partly true. Russia and Turkey were jointly fighting France Neandor and Israel in Africa. I was giving Russia older units to bolster his garrisons, Navy which he couldnt build, as he didn't even have Calendar, and Siege units, And in return he supplied me with more advanced units. Also, I was getting a substantial amount of units from Arabia. Arabia was sending units to me and then I send to Russia for upgrades and some Russia gave to me and some Russia gave to Arabia, while I supplied Arabia with Naval units and upgrades and put an end to their culture war over the Red sea for them by taking all the Israeli cities on the Red Sea. And then, as a condition of Israel's surrender, they had to turn over their whole Army to me, which I then sent to Russia for upgrades.

His actions may have been his own, but his armies came from you. It certainly seemed as if you were behind it

So by the end of the Great War, I had ammased a good amount of military units, but it was nothing like what Azteca and you thought, which was - Russia just gave Turkey a huge Army and told them "Now Go Forth and Crush my new enemies the Americans and Aztecs... Good Dog!" In truth all Russia did to encourage that attack was just mention that Aztecs had planned to invade Africa. We were planning to let them invade and just arm the Africans and trap the Aztecs, but part way through the planning, I caught the Aztecs scouting the African coast (with the Zulus) and loading their Rifles into Galleons in the most Eastern city (with Turkish espionage), clearly preparing for the invasion. So came to 3 conclusions.

1. The Zulus did not have enough forces to withstand what the Aztecs were sending, so I needed to pre-empt the invasion

2. If we let the Aztecs invade Africa, then intervened, France would probably side with Aztecs and with their MASSIVE garrison in Tangiers, we would lose. Then Axis would be the masters of Africa and my Israeli nemesis would be rejuvenated . Plus our alliance would look weak. So I had to bring the fight to to the West, where Axis had no forces to muck things up. "Better to fight over there then back here again" I was thinking.

3. This was a perfect excuse to invade North America. About this - When I joined the game to sub for Ottomans, the nation was in bad shape. Backwards in tech, sucky land, sandwiched between Superpowers and France with huge garrisons on our borders. I needed to expand my lands and I needed allies quick. Out of my neighbors the only targets without the huge garrisons were Arabia and Israel. However Russia told me almost immediately that Arabia was under Russia's protection and off limits, so that left Israel as my only choice to attack.

But I needed allies to guard my back while I invaded. I tried to reach out to France, but they ignored me. I tried to reach out to Neandor, but it became obvious that Neandor was only interested in extracting a few coins from me for some ragtag obsolete units he wanted to dump. Neandor just wanted to exploit me and seemed more interested in using me as a foil against Russia than helping me improve my situation. So that whole idea was scrapped. I couldnt invade Israel with Russia France AND Neandor breathing down my neck.

I looked at the Diplo-tech window and saw that only the civs in the Americas were as backwards as me. So new plan was to try and launch a colonialism style invasion of the Americas while they were still backwards, as it seemed England had already done. England was already in South America, so I had to target North America. But there were 2 BIG problems... First, I didn't even have Astronomy yet, and Second, I knew that Diplogames were different from MP games. I couldnt just attack somebody for NO REASON.

So I thought I would focus my efforts hard on fixing the first problem while I tried to think of a way to deal with the second one... Eventually it hit me... I could develop a Storyline that would help explain my push into America and pair it to my Aggressive push to get Astronomy... enter the Inventor Brahman/Accolytes Storyline. The Inventor Brahman was a Great Scientist that I got by switching to Caste system. I used him to rush Astronomy and his 'teachings' for Turks to leave Europe so that I could set sail to colonize North America.

My original plan was to force my way into North America, and try to use my superior (by North American standards) tech to take a big chunk of land and become a Superpower over there. I was planning to abandon my European cities to Russia, France, Neandor and Israel, in exchange for military and monetary aid. Now tell me that wouldn't have spiced things up?

Unfortunately, right around the time I was loading my newly built Galleons to leave, the Great War broke out, and Russia and England started pressuring me to get involved. I desperately just wanted to leave Europe to its troubles, and just stick to my plan to go kick the sh!t out of the North Americans and play my own, independent game. But then I realized that that is a sucker's strategy, you have to form alliances or you are Fodder.

So I gave up my dreams of leaving Europe, and focused everything on trying to save England... OK so Great War, yada yada yada, done... Alright, THEN, fast forward to when I found out Aztecs were planning to invade Africa. I HAD to invade Aztecs anyway, so I thought, this is my chance to kill two birds with one stone, plus I thought, America is probably helping them, or in on it somehow, so if I just do it really fast it will be over in like 2 turns, those guys are so weak over there... And then... wait for it...

INCA started meddling and threatening to DoW me and demanding that I leave, so then it was impossible to invade full out, because I had to keep some men in Havana to be sure Inca didn't take it.

That stalled me out alot... enough that my worst fear was realized. I knew that whether I fought the Aztecs in Africa or in North America, the French were going to intervene, that was a given. But I thought with North America I would have 2-4 turns before the French would arrive, whereas they would be there instantly in Africa. But when the Inca started meddling, it threw everything off and gave the French time to arrive... that plus the Aztecs DM controversy/reload created so much bad press that finally Russia stepped in and asked me to back off, which I did.

Anyway, Look back at the old story threads, its all there, my invasion of America was telegraphed from day one.

:

I experienced first hand that fair play was not something that was considered in this game, and as such, playing on would be futile.

I think it needs to be said, that Indian player, you, deserve alot of respect, because through very difficult situations you tough it out. I mean you complain and whine alot, but in the end you stick with it, and that's what matters Very Manly, and worthy of much praise and admiration. Three Cheers for India!

[Russia (DoE)]

And here comes the constructive part - why dont you take the Neandors as a sub and teach this knave to behave?

[Russia (DoE)]

OK, Priest, you state that the previous games were different than this one. After this you make assumption that your replacement did not played them. How he is supposed to know what was in the previous games and argue with you about them? What if the guy is new to the diplo-gaming?

And he is right without doubt about few things - you and Neandord took the second city from the French, causing him to quit. Then you razed the second city of the Israeli. And thats in the first 50 or so turns of the game. How this works with your accusations of this guy being too harsh or the whole game being not-so-diplo?

[The Priest]

@ Ottomans

You really do make me laugh, though at the same time you sadly reveal your approach to discussions. Perhaps that is why few engage with you.

A mock apology for ignoring the argument and making personal attacks followed by ... four more paragraphs of personal attacks which continue to ignore the argument that, the previous diplo games I mentioned haven't followed the pattern you assert.

But that isn't something you want to hear. You know you are right, so sail on my friend. Enjoy!

[Russia (DoE)]

Groaan! This is gonna be the Delian League all over again

[LzPrst]

Russia takes Athens. Do it!

Groaan! This is gonna be the Delian League all over again

[OzzyKP]

Let that be the arrangement. Calanthian takes Neandor and Russia takes Athens. Do it!

[Russia (DoE)]

And are you going to take the Neandors in this one?

[Calanthian]

The WPC diplo game is going to restart within 24 hrs.

We have one, central position: Athens available. PM me if you are interested..

Russia (DoE), do you join? Or anyone else?

[Calanthian]

A perfect example of a civ choosing to be Fodder, because it would be fun for them. That's why you are OK with it and not whining about it, because you knew that's what you were doing and wanted to go out in a blaze of glory.

I wouldn't call it a blaze of glory, at best a blaze of confusion

Actually I planned to draw out the revolution thing some more..
but you kept on attacking, so quickly there wasn't a point in it anymore..

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

eh, even in the "AAR" I get no love for playing brinkmanship with the Turks over America...

Don't worry Inca, Turkey gets no love for the "Fear Factor" that benefitted our outnumbered, out-teched, alliance so well. England mentioned a while back that alot of Axis (and the Axis friends) despair was based on overblown FEAR of the might of the Allies. I like to think Turkey had alot to do with that. I like to think that a big part of the reason Vikings bought that empty threat to raze their Holy City is because Turkey had developed a reputation for our alliance as the dreaded Raze-Attack-From-The-Sea guys. I put alot of thought and work into building this mystique, but alas, I get called a "mechanics manipulator" instead of an "@ss kicker"... I guess that's how it goes

I sure as hell didn't give you another option then to take me out... Perhaps strange, but for me, in the game position I was this was the path of the most fun

A perfect example of a civ choosing to be Fodder, because it would be fun for them. That's why you are OK with it and not whining about it, because you knew that's what you were doing and wanted to go out in a blaze of glory.

In all fairness, someone should have conquered them a long time ago and put them out of their misery...

Yea, in future games, we need a mechanism to vote abandoned civs off the island

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Very well said. But the problem is that many of the players dont think so. They are either want to be independent or they want to be powerful or they dont have fun.

Exactly, which is why I said, the MAIN problem is simple plain sore-losers. If you can only have fun when you are powerful or winning then you are lame , and you will rarely make it to the end in a game, unless you are the best player in the game, and there can be only one of those.

You have to be willing to adapt and have fun regardless of the situation. In this game, America was a Master at this, probably the best. America was so fluid in his ability to change his allegiances or just do the minimum needed to pacify an aggressor. That's why despite being outmanned and Outgunned, America's nation remained intact, while Azteca was obliterated.

America got the whole Superpower, Pawn, Fodder concept, and played it expertly (not to mention being an amazing storyteller). When Turkey attacked, America quickly said, well I'm not a Superpower, so I better become a Pawn quick,!... and it worked... Turkey was forced out. When Turkey attacked again, America quickly said, Oh well the old Pawn relationship has dried up, better form a new one fast, and just moved on to the next one. That's why America still as all his cities.

A diplogame in which you constantly have to take care not to have anyone grow to powerful and everybody should remain equal, well, that sounds a bit boring I think... To me the discussions about realism, balance, score, alliances...I think it all kinda misses the point.

I agree, it would be boring. Players always complain when the game is too peaceful and balanced, about how boring it is. The No Score mod will help alot with this, especially civs obsessing about score and "top" civs allying with each other. With no score (theoretically) it would be harder to truly determine who is a Top Civ. Ideally, the whole discussion would go away, and people would just focus on the diplomacy score. But then again, it might make people obssess about MP-style rank even more, because then there would be NO objective way to measure who was ahead. So then we would argue endlessly about who was truly "winning," pointing to # of cities, military size, techs etc.

[Inca (DoE)]

Less personal arguments, more how-are-we-getting-this-game-rolling-or-ended arguments. I'm fine with:

1. restarting with random civ switching (with a few automatically set to AI like Zulu and Aztec)
2. starting a new one
3. playing on, switching whoever needs it to AI and getting subs for whoever we can (I'm done subbing Zulu, as there really is jack to do and it's a pointless waste of time as an AI could do what I'm doing right now)
4. playing on, etc, plus we reset all diplo agreements

5. doing any of the above, plus experimenting with some new rules as mentioned in the other thread (we can get them worked out on a game that's already almost dead so there's not much risk if some don't work out)

And, yes, I've been subbing for Zulu (properly, don't worry Otts). I built some windmills. It was a blast. Their terrain is total crap, I am not much of a quitter, but I wouldn't have followed through to the end with that start either.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Well Ottoman you are wrong. Your response to my post was a clever attempt to claim some 'special knowledge' and attack the person not the argument. Shame you didn't respond to what I actually said.

Sorry The Priest You are absolutely right, when I looked back at my response to you there was no substance at all, just just me asserting that I "read all the old Ottoman PMs", weak argument I agree. I'd had my nightcap by then and I tend to be long winded so I just cut off my response without adding the substance. So again, sorry about that

So, very quickly, one of the things I noticed, was that you were fine with the very aggressive, opportunistic, very un-gentlemanly razing of Israel's Holy City, their 2nd city in the game (which I ageed with totally BTW... It was Grrrrrreat as Tony the Tiger says). BUT... This was a total violation of your "gentleman code" nonsense and it was an action that I had to spend half my play-time in this game suffering the consequences of, precisely because of how ungentlemanly Israel regarded it. I mean RP tried hard to seperate his OOC feelings from his IC ones, but it was obvious that he was mixing the two and it was obvious that he felt very ill-used about it.

But then there was some issue where IIRC either it was France and Neandor ganking you, or maybe it was when France founded Venetti, I forget which, maybe both... And Oh how the tables were turned in that one. So much whining! So much complaining! Whining to the host, whining on the threads, complaining to everyone about how the diplo spirit or whatever was being violated and how unfair it was to you etc., etc.,

And that was the argument I failed to make. You might remember it differently, but you are biased because its you we are talking about. As an objective observer coming in to sub, reading your PMs, I noticed a stark contradiction between how you applied the gentleman code thing, depending on whether it was to YOUR advantage.

Again, I know we don't agree on this issue, but you at least deserved to hear where I was getting my argument from. Sorry that I didnt post it before as I should have

[Inca (DoE)]

In all fairness, someone should have conquered them a long time ago and put them out of their misery...