Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

I appreciate Israel's balanced words on here.

As he said, we did discuss at some length this today (which is why there was a longer pause). I offered a settler, worker/missionary and half any future shrine income from Jerusalem in exchange for the city. But Israel felt he prefer to risk the attack and either keep it for himself or take his civ/stories on a new turn. I was sad about that but his choice. I hoped that the city wouldn't auto-raze - I thought that because it has culturally expanded already it wouldn't but I must have been mistaken. I would have much prefered the holy city too! (Note it wasn't a shrine, though obviously had the potential to be one. Basically one of the seven religions has just been nerfed).

In this game with very little space and tightly packed cities, culture is the dominant force. Jerusalem had already stripped much land from an earlier city of mine two tiles away, and would continue to do so. For similar reasons ther offer of land in Africa wasn't appealing either since the Egyptian capital will soon have 40 culture a turn from wonders alone, and will strip the land away from any other city. Oh why didn't I chosen a creative and/or industrious civ!

The real problem here was that Israel had build a whole strategy around a particular story-line, which involved a challenging city placement. I hugely admire the story-telling, but to what extent does that mean I should accept the choking? I hoped we could find a solution - hence the deals offered - which would have kept a very disputed Jerusalem at the centre of the middle east. But Israel couldn't find any transfer of ownership of Jerusalem palitable. Game wise, Egypt is still the score leader, so I don't feel too bad there, but the story thing is a shame. As Germany found earlier, the tight squeeze for land compared to any previous Diplo-game is creating new complexities.

But for me the main thing is praise for how Israel has handled it. If we had the old DoC vote for attitude he would get all of mine. And the Turks, well as someone said earlier, it proves the storying about being warlike isn't just bluff!

[OzzyKP]

Oh wow, I didn't think it auto-razed. I too thought that the culture would have made it immune from that. I thought you had razed it deliberately. I guess all of us assumed it wouldn't auto-raze, so you did everything right.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Thanks Ozzy.

It is wierd the lack of auto-raze. I had always thought that if a city had had a boundary expansion it didn't auto-raze. I wonder now if it doesn't auto-raze if you have built a cultural building in the city (or of course have expanded the pop). Jerusalem had expanded because of stongehenge elsewhere and religion but didn't have any cultural buildings of its own. I'm in the dark though. Frustrasting!

[The Priest]

Do we have a problem with India?

Civ Stats is hard to interpret, but it looks to me like it is at war, missing turns, and apparently it is losing cities. Does it even know it is at war?

[Japan (DoE)]

Umm little confused right now. but why does the play your turn say i've been eliminated and who singed in as me?

[Vikings (DoE)]

Wow a Holy City razed? Wasn't it against the rules to raze a Holy city? Anyway I think this is a very anti-diplo move on Arabs part. A big No from me.

[Robert]

India just logged in, but lost his city after missing like 8 turns in a row.
I think we should reload to the point where Arabia declared war on India. I'm sorry that I missed this!
Everybody else agrees?

Ottomans/Israel just have to do what they did if we reload.

[Mongolia (DoE)]

I think it is dangerous to go back, the odds that battles will turn out differently in relation to Jerusalem is too high to risk. On the note of autoraze, a city must grow beyond size 1 to avoid autoraze, culture has no part in it. If it is whipped back to size 1 it remains safe from autoraze.

[Israel (DoE)]

If we reload I'll just abandon Jerusalem so that the Ottomans can raze it.
(or we have to accept that it's truely G'd's (!?) will that Jerusalem must remain b/c G'd works in mysterious ways and it includes reloads b/c of game mechanics

If I would be India then I would be angry to see that I lost a city while I wasn't even there.
And if I would have been Arabia then I would have asked for a pause b/c my enemy wasn't playing his turns.

[mzprox]

In civ4 pop1 cities get autorazed if they never went above pop1, after that they won't. Culture, buildings, even wonders don't matter. If razing the city was not Ottoman's intention maybe you can work out something to change what happened.. note I'm not playing this game and changing history may not be a good precedent, so it's your call

[The Priest]

India - Arabia

1. I think we should pause. The timer is still ticking, and on a 8 hour timer, the whole thing just gets more complicated with every turn which passes. A pause, without prejudice as to whether there will be a reload etc., but it gives time to think.

2. On the India-Arabia issue. It does seem pretty poor. I don't remember any stories about the war, and yes I'm surprised that Arabia didn't raise the problem themselves - surely they must have known that their opponent wasn't playing - if only because when at war you have to watch turn order closely. It feels as if Arabia did know but just tried to keep the whole thing quiet, to his advantage. That may not be true - be good to hear from Arabia on it - but wars against people who aren't playing and don't know there is a war is pretty bad form.

Our double-move rules make this clear:

03. Wartime Double Moves
a. Civilizations that are at war have to observe the turn order. The turn order is set during the first turn of the war. If the invaded party played first in the turn before the war started, then the agressor must let him play first in the next turn as well before he can declare war on him.


b. Players are free to agree on a new turn order if all involved parties agree and this new turn order is published in the organization thread and all involved parties publish their agreement there as well.

c. The host will pause the game if the turn is about to advance in about 2 hours while any player involved did not play his turn.

d. During war all players must always play their turn. If it takes a player more then 24 hours the game administrator will look for a temp sub.

I don't blame our host for not pausing etc. as the rules required, because nobody told him there was a war on. But the rules are clear that you can't have a war in which turns aren't taken.

3. What to do? Reloading is the clearest solution, but it depends how far back you need to go. More than a couple of turns and its impossible and very boring for everyone else to replay accurately. I am sure Israel and the Ottomans can sort a replay of Jersualem but even so, more than a turn or two would be very hard (which is why perhaps arabia should have raised the problem earlier). A more possible solution would be a peace deal between arabia and india which perhaps returns the city which was captured while the other player wasn't playing and couldn't diplo, but gives some benefit to Arabia.

[Native America (DoE)]

Let's get it sorted out quickly.

[Robert]

I have just paused the game.
I did already send a PM to India asking for feedback from him. (he recently played his turn and did thus not leave the game).

We have to go back 4 turns to undo the fall of the city.
I think we should do that. Israel already promised to let Jerusalem fall again.
I want a confirmation from India first though.

If he thinks that the city would have fallen anyway and he's fine to continue anyway, then we should do that.
But he's completely right if he wants a reload.

[Israel (DoE)]

In civ4 pop1 cities get autorazed if they never went above pop1, after that they won't. Culture, buildings, even wonders don't matter. If razing the city was not Ottoman's intention maybe you can work out something to change what happened.. note I'm not playing this game and changing history may not be a good precedent, so it's your call

I'm totally willing to cooperate with the Ottomans if they want to keep the city instead of autoraze.
I think Jerusalem would grow to size 2 in only 1 turn, so if the Ottomans just delay their attack by one turn after a reload needed to save India, then I'm totally ok with that....!

Just like I said, I'll fully cooperate to replay history if the Ottomans want to, or create a new history if the Ottomans want to try to keep Jerusalem as a holy city!.....

/me purges the past 5 PM's to the Ottomans from the Ottomans memory

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Good try my Jewish friend. But sadly the Ottomans can't quite forget the fact that in one turn, maybe Jersualem would grow, but you would also complete an axeman in the city, so no I don't think I will be delaying anything. If you want Jerusalem to avoid burning, then just hand it over ....

@RP Is 4 turns to the point when the city fell, or when war was declared, or when arab armies arrived at the frontier and there was a moment for deals. No point just going back to the point when a city is doomed to fall.