Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[LzPrst]

is this ever going to start up again? my new comp is giving me trouble so I have not been logging in as much as usual.

ps. If anyone has any idea why a comp will start some times, but not at all other times (nothing happens when I press the on-button) I would love some advice.

[Russia (DoE)]

It is true that the Inca never gave anyone units for free. I payed with gold for each and every unit I received from them for permanently. Few units were given to me as a loan and asked for after some time. And as I played England during the final stage of the Great War, I know that the Inca have asked for all its units who were loaned to England when England was already able to produce units on her own.

[Inca (DoE)]

hm, so did you want me to give you free units or not? That is how I read it: you wanted me, for no good reason, to give you free units. I don't think I've ever given anyone in this game free units, although I've loaned cheaply some to England when he was getting sorely double-teamed and was worried about losing ALL his northeastern Atlantic territories. That was an emergency action. Eventually, I think most of the units were returned, although he kept some of my "named" units in exchange for some of his self-made units as it was easier than shipping them half-way across the world back to me. I received other benefits from this over the course of the game, so the loan wasn't for free. Maybe I looked the other way at the loss of a few cats there, so perhaps I 'gifted' him some in the end.

Also note that none of those units were used against the Viking/French mainland, as I insisted upon. If units with Inca names were later used, it was after similar units had been returned to Inca (although I still am unaware of any such uses, and have long since stopped caring about old maces).

So, let's put this in context (as you did somewhat): we spent most of the game with closed borders, even after trying to reopen them with you. Neandor unilaterally and needlessly closed borders with me during the war, and you double-teamed my friend, England, took out their core cities, and asked me to gift/give you units for free because at some point I had transferred arms to England (under terms you were not aware of) while they were being royally ************ by the continent...

I think I was as diplomatic as could be in my response to that. No, it was not likely that after you DoW'd England you were getting any units until the cities were returned. Since that situation was rectified, however, such opportunities have become increasingly available (as Neandor or their new sub can attest to) as I have not been bound by defensive cooperation to be less neutral than I had wanted.

Regardless of the past, the opportunity for relations has presented itself again, although who knows what will happen now.

Anyway, I'm up for a radical reordering of things whenever the game restarts, although I sort of feel that a new game is best so we don't lose the Natives as well as pissing off others.

[France (DoE)]

France wanted to "balance the scales"? Right, a giant joke. France demanded I gift them a ton of free units.

Giant joke? How so? You declared how neutral you were publicly (to the point of trying to mediate the peace talks) and admitted to helping out England when they were in need. So when the tide turns and we ask for help, well, it shows how neutral you really were. And for the record - here are my requests...

Your Assistance, Please

to:

Sapa Chitcopi Incacona
Capaco, Empire of Inca

Your government has publicly stated:

"We regret that Inca arms have been used in an assault on French troops. Such units were given to the English a long time ago, perhaps [40T] ago, and at the time were little more than armed with maces. This was in the wake of massive English casualties, and as such the English were desperate to acquire any moderately strong units to bolster their extremely weakened and vulnerable defenses, as two major armies pushed through her homeland and threatened to deprive her of all her European possessions. The Inca made sure such units would not be used in any invasions against either the French or Viking mainlands (aggressively)."

As you are aware, the troops which were gifted to the English did in fact result in the loss of French troops. We now find ourselves facing numerous enemies, which we know are being supplied and/or supported by neutral nations.

We would consider it a true sign of your neutrality if you would gift an equivalent number of modern units to France. I will make a similar guarantee that the units gifted would not be used in any offensive operations outside of French soil, and in saying that, I will also exclude their use in captured territories in the British Isles. They will be stationed solely for defensive purposes in French North Africa or mainland France.

We thank you in advance for such an enduring symbol of your neutrality and for ensuring that 'outside' interests do not unfairly unbalance the conflict in Europe.

Sincerely,

Marc Renaud
Interim Head of the French Government

Your response ...

A letter to the leadership in Paris:
Dear French leadership,


We will most seriously consider this. Unfortunately, your allies the Neander have again, without warning or explanation, unilaterally closed borders with us, and as such our diplomatic arm for your relations is at present wandering aimlessly through the hills. So, it will take some time to contact them...


Signed,

A'mall Y'Chupat

Acting Assistant Undersecretary for France of the Western Affairs Division
Capaco, Empire of Inca

My response ...

A'mall Y'Chupat

Acting Assistant Undersecretary for France of the Western Affairs Division
Capaco, Empire of Inca

Thank you for considering our request. I am not sure what Neandor closing borders has to do with this. We maintain open borders with Inca, so it is possible to discuss this urgent matter immediately, and if agreed, for you to supply support soon. The quickest route would be to gift units in North Africa, where as you are aware, my territory is threatened by not only Turk and Russian units, but Arabian mercenaries, and Israeli troops turned over as part of the recent peace deal forced upon Israel.

I trust to hear from you post haste.

My deepest regards,

Marc Renaud
Interim Head of the French Government

Your response ...

Re: Your Assistance, Please

We are aware that the Arabs have not sent any mercenaries or soldiers to Russia for some time, being intimately connected to Arab politics as we are. Their primary concerns at present are to defend themselves, it seems.

The closure of borders with Neander, your great ally, has thrown out the diplomats and officials who handle European affairs, which makes it hard for us to coordinate this, as they are not properly settled down yet in their new bureau in the Ottoman lands. We are still negotiating with the Ottomans over resettlement, as there is some bad blood over our abrupt departure and border closing last time, but certainly Neander lands are not a place for us to base our diplomatic efforts out of anymore.

We were under the impression that you had not reopened borders with us.

And then nothing. And later, I tried another tack, when we are trying to woo you into joining an alliance of American states - fat chance of that in hind sight.

Mako Panuta

Sapa Chitcopi Incacona
Capaco, Empire of Inca

I am writing on the matter of the Incan troops used against France in the last war. Many French soldiers died in action against Incan troops fighting under the English flag. Past Incan rulers acknowledged this involvement, and justified it as the English were under siege from stronger forces.

I could ask for compensation directly from Inca, but we are now at peace, and as you would likely balk at the idea, I do not want to create ill will between our nations.

However, there is a nation that is now under siege by superior forces, that being America. I would consider your debt to France forgiven if you provide America with six (6) military units, grenadiers or rifles.

You have spoken publicly against the Turkish aggression on North American soil. This would be your opportunity to take positive action in this regard. You can either do it quietly, or publicly. The former is probably best. And you can contact the Aztecs and America to arrange the transfer, or I can act as a facilitator. Your choice.

I look forward to your response.

Regards,

Louis, King of France

And again, the lack of a meaningful response reflected on your 'neutrality'.

So, I made a reasonable request - not a demand. Also, I did not ask for a ton of units. I asked for the equivalent you gave England. Maybe that was a ton of units. And later for a beleaguered ally I ask for a modest 6 units. Instead you provided destroyers to the enemy. Enough said. Just wanted to put the record straight.

[France (DoE)]

It is Inca, not India, but still this makes sense.

Inca? Then forget it. I completely disagree!!! He still owes me units.

[Russia (DoE)]

That's only because Genevieve was assassinated.

Hahah, yes, Genevieve was cool too. In fact, I was so shocked by her assassination, that I was ready to declare war to anyone who was pointed out as a instigator of this. I remember the goose-flesh I got on my neck on reading about the brutal assault on her and seeing those Hindu fanatics.

[Russia (DoE)]

I agree totally with this, India.

It is Inca, not India, but still this makes sense.

[France (DoE)]

And some last thoughts after all this catching up.

Many thanks to the Vikings (Rhothaerill) for giving diplo-gaming a go, and for baby-sitting France while I was away. My previous 'independent' sub was not up for it.

As to all the talk about double move and taking advantage of the game mechanics, etc, I have no problems with anything done so far, with one exception. In the Inca/America war, when the Aztec player was forced to replay after he acknowledged he logged in a second time to 'see' what was going on, but did not move anything. That reversed a key event, the destruction of the Turks in the city still on ships. I understand the principal behind the decision, but to stick that on a player, who I believe was new to pitboss and diplogaming, well, that seemed bad form to me. Sorry Otto's, I do not want to start up another huge debate here, Because for the most part I agree with the way you have played the game and what you have argued here in the OOC thread. But that is one item I question. It would have been easy for you to say: "No probs. I trust it was an innocent mistake on the part of the Aztec player and not a double move (as he stated). Play on." Instead you hung your hat on a technicality and drastically altered the course of that war.

As to the heavy-duty debates - great stuff by all! This is the way diplo-gaming evolves and grows. I see it as healthy, with only a few slips over the line into getting personal.

Thanks to Ozzy et al for your constructive efforts to keep this game going.

My sympathies to all of those who have suffered personal losses or facing real life issues over the last while. Good to have civ to escape to at times.

And finally - I lend a large fleet to the Aztecs and it gets eliminated. By all accounts, I loaned another large fleet to Neandor or Vikings, and it gets eliminated.

Note to self ......

[France (DoE)]

France's vote.

CHINA PARTITION----------------------------------------------------
This is already happening, but just to make sure everyone is comfortable with it. Vote on whether you think it is appropriate for China to remain AI and have Japan, India, Mongolia, Russia, et al divide them up and eliminate them militarily.

Yes


ZULU PARTITION----------------------------------------------------
Someone logs in as the Zulu and gifts cities and units evenly between Israel and the Mali.


No


All alliance options assumes there is no Zulu or China. Even if people don't like the partition, they will still be AI and non-factors in the game. When voting for alliances and for peace options, please vote yes or no for each option, and then also indicate a preference for one. A winning option needs to have a majority accepting that option (voting yes) and a plurality preferring it.

ALLIANCE OPTION 1----------------------------------------------------

Axis (fascists):
Neandor-France-Viking-Arabia-India-Mongolia-Natives-America

Communists (or democrats):
Russia-Turkey-Inca-England-Japan-Mali


No


ALLIANCE OPTION 2----------------------------------------------------

Fascist Alliance:
Neandor-Arabia-Japan-Vikings-Egypt

Communist Alliance:
Russia-Native America-Ottomans-Mongolia-Mali

Democrat Alliance:
England-Inca-France-America-India


No


ALLIANCE OPTION 3----------------------------------------------------

The game continues organically from here with no enforced alliances.

Yes

This is my preference.


ENFORCED PEACE OPTION 1----------------------------------------------------

30 turn global non-aggression pact (not including China or Zulu).


No


ENFORCED PEACE OPTION 2----------------------------------------------------

20 turn global non-aggression pact (not including China or Zulu).


No


ENFORCED PEACE OPTION 3----------------------------------------------------

10 turn global non-aggression pact (not including China or Zulu).

Yes

This is my preference.

I think a minimal cooling off period would be good. Especially with some of us returning and others taking over new civs,

ENFORCED PEACE OPTION 4----------------------------------------------------

No non-aggression pact. Continue as normal.


No

[France (DoE)]

Catherine is the coolest, sexiest and most magnetic chick on this Earth!

That's only because Genevieve was assassinated.

[France (DoE)]

So - after all this discussion, and guess what, France is winning the game.

[France (DoE)]

This solves none of the issues that we've been contending with since the "great pause" began: people have been overly focused on power relations/etc ("score") rather than the actual diplo format of story-telling and role-playing (at times at the expense of "score"), and people have therefore been creating large, static alliances that kill enjoyability and dynamism (well, I disagree with both of those, but others agree. At the very least, it killed the game for those on the "losing" side).

If you guys want to do that, fine, but I didn't spend the last year creating a peaceful, "builder" nation to toss it in the end in a 'global war to end all civ global wars' thing. If everyone wants that, I'll certainly play along, but I'd prefer it if we either dropped this approach or excluded me from it at least. I will say that I'd still be marginally attached to England in regards to its Incaco territories (death to any who tried such an invasion), but I don't really want to take a part in this after I spent the last few months trying to forge some sort of an independent path.

I agree totally with this, India.

[France (DoE)]

We MUST structure the alliance so there is an obvious lopsided bias in favor of the ones who will complain and be crybabies if they don't have a big advantage. Everyone knows that's Axis so just stack the deck in their favor and be done with it. I am dead serious. We are never going to agree on balance. The only way the Axis players won't quit is if they have an indisputable advantage.

C'mon. This is going a bit too far. I can't speak for the previous Neandor player. I was not here when he quit - but I do know that RL work was heavy on his time, and his mind. And the Viking player was new to diplo-gaming, and as he has explained more than once, it is not for him. I am still here, and have fought through good times and bad. So cut this crap you stated above. It is not helpful.

As to us being the Axis, our enemies have come with that name - not us. We are ACE, the Alliance of Central Europe. We are neither fascist, nor dictatorships. France remains a progressive monarchy, similar to Neandor. The Vikings are a weird form of religious oligarchy, that not even its allies understand.

[France (DoE)]

That leaves Arabia pretty isolated I think Arabia is having buyers remorce with Axis and just wants to be back with Russia. But then Axis has no Oil (again) and that starts whine-o-rama back up.

The simple solution there woukld be to return Guardaia to its rightful owners.

[France (DoE)]

Just start the game from where we left off with no new rules and be done with it.

dont know - after much thinking about it, maybe it is for real best to just continue the game ........ and let the things evolve by themselves.

(I'm still reading the thread... would have been quicker if you guys had not written so much ... )