Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[America (DoE)]

The peace treaty that is on the table is an unconditional surrender by the Ottomans. Which would mean that all American cities will be returned to American control. So with that knowledge, I am now wondering what the best course of action will be after the reload? I suppose that should be worked out between the Ottomans and the Aztecs?

[OzzyKP]

So... just trying to parse all the back and forth... is this what happened?

Turn 1
Aztec move
Ottoman move
Aztec login to look around

Turn 2
Aztec move, declare war, capture Miami
Ottoman move

If this is what happened then... sorry Aztec, that is against the rules. Since there is no way to prove you just looked around, it counts as a double move. It sucks, I know. I never liked this rule, but it is too late to change it now.

If America is getting Miami back anyhow from the peace treaty, then the only real consequence in the game would be how many dead Aztec & Ottoman troops there are. The larger result will be the same.

[Russia (DoE)]

I remember one occasion where after a non-intentional (and most probably non-profitable) doublemove by Arabia against Israel the host judged that a reload must be made, no matter if it makes difference or not and meanwhile a peace was secured between the two warring nations, so it made irrelevant the final outcome with or without the doublemove, so we have a good precedent.

Is the game paused after all as I dont want to miss my turn with all this mess? I saw the PYT uploader is running.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

OK. Pause and let host decide I just rather we agreed on what to do, because I host pitbosses myself and it is better for me when all parties agree on the way to do a reload or not do it... makes my job easier. It is sticky mediating, especially when you are playing

Two more points:
1. Even assuming Aztecs made no actions, just looked around, I would still want a reload, because at that point, they have info they use to plan actions for next turn and extra time to think about it. If Aztec had not logged in, they would potentially have to make decisions on the spot with no pre planning which could affect their choices. To illustrate, if I complain that I only had a few minutes to play before heading to work, and I couldn't pre plan because I couldn't log in to check the situation before going to bed so I played sloppy in the morning, what would you say? You would say too bad, that is how turn order works. And that is my point. Aztec logging in early robs me of the potential benefit of them making a bad decision because their planning time is limited. This brings me to the second point...

2. I was not suprised by Aztec attack. They implied it in the story thread. I moved Galleons with Rifles into Miami to defend and clicked unload but it didn't work, as in Rifles did not unload and I didn't notice. If I had seen Aztecs log in after me, I could have logged in after them to see if they advanced on the city or DoWed me. And i would have probably doublechecked my defenses in Miami as it was vunerable. I would have noticed that the Rifles didn't unload and unloaded them. That would have made things different.

My point is if reload happens as Aztec suggests, ie they get to correct their error of logging in early, then I should get to correct my error of not unloading the rifles. Otherwise reload should be to beginning of current turn and Aztecs move after me or wait until next turn to attack.

[America (DoE)]

Excellent, I managed to log in and pause the game, so we wait for RP to make a decision about the double move.

[Russia (DoE)]

Good then lets hope it finishes with happy end for all involved

[America (DoE)]

I PM'ed Robert about the server issue and the double move issue.

[America (DoE)]

Hm, I just logged in, got a diplo screen, and then the connection to the pitboss was lost, and I am no longer able to log in...

[America (DoE)]

Ok, I'll log in now and pause the game and PM Robert I'm sure we'll come to a sensible solution

[Russia (DoE)]

Just pause the game and PM Robert to avoid many other people playing their turns and then had to redo it all. It can be very very frustrating.

[Russia (DoE)]

I agree that the host must decide and enforce his judgment.

And on another point, it is not that bad to mix a bit IC and OOC if the outcome will be better for all the parties involved and the good will triumph

Yes, the Aztecs took the Ottomans by surprise, but because of their triumph the Americans will suffer the most. Russia will personally benefit from a reload because of the peace that I was trying to make happen behind the scenes.
Peace which would not be possible otherwise.

[mzprox]

As a neutral observer my opinion is that you both have a good point, but I'd go with the Aztec's suggestion and reload the previous turn just before the Aztecs moved but this time they should not log in so they could start the next turn. This is the only way to avoid the double move without giving Ottomans time to prepare to a supposedly surprise attack. This is just one opinion, technically the ottomans are right too saying that the Aztecs made a mistake( by logging in) and should suffer the consequences.

[Aztecs (DoE)]

I have made my point. In my opinion you are just tossing up a whole lot of smoke which confuses matters further.
I propose we pause the game and let a neutral party decide (Robert?).

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

@ Vikings - I make no accusations on Aztec. That is the purpose of following the order so there is no need to investigate or 'prove' anything. There is no need to talk about tile switches and behind the scenes movements and workers actions spider changes, and the myriad of things that effect when units are built upgraded etc. You are focusing on the one thing, ie the military victory and whether that is undone. I say forget about that. A reload request is legitimately made, and forget about accusations which may or may not be proven.

Technically you played AFTER the Ottomans. Maybe you did not encounter many such disputes, but from my experience, if you intend to go at war, it is A MUST that you avoid any actions that may lead to possible dispute. I have even seen experienced pitbossers MISS the whole turn before declaring war. This way there is no possibility anyone can claim anything, but that is extreme example. The fact stays that between your 2 consecutive logins in 2 different turns the Ottomans did not logged in. And you declared war in the second.

There were examples in this game, where a written history had to be deleted because of a reload for double moving, so this will be no precedent. It is only messy, because the host is on vacation. Maybe you two interested parties must PM him, as I have found he gets very, very quick notice he have a PM and normally he reacts very quick.

Russia captures the situation exactly. I did not attack at beginning of the turn and in fact waited a full turn to attack because I wanted first move, but the India/ Japan reload was not resolved and I wanted to avoid exactly the situation we have now, where a reload would occur after me attacking, so then I would be attacking a nation with foreknowledge that the attack was coming. Then there would be hard feelings and arguments about who moved or switched this and that etc, and arguments about accusations and honor and who believes who did what and when. Azteca is focused on defending honor and wants a reload to a point to prove that he could have not logged in after me taken the city anyway.

Essentially what you are asking is to treat your second log in as a mistake. But that is besides the point. I made a mistake too. I clicked to unload my Cannon into the city, but I also clicked to unload my Rifles off the Galleons into the city. But apparently the Rifles did not unload, as you only had to kill a Cannon to take Miami. If the Rifles had unloaded as I intended, you probably would not have taken the city who knows? Do I get a reload to fix my mistake since you want the reload to fix yours? Do you trust me that I really just accidentally left the Rifles on the boat? If not, then What about my honor in the face of being called a liar? Of course this is rhetorical, but do you see what I am saying? Forget about the 'proving' stuff and the hard feelings about 'accusations.' Just go by the log and reload to before Aztecs moved. The rest is just vanity.

So to avoid all that happening during the Japan reload controversy, I asked for the game to be paused, or for the reload to be done or the issue to be resolved, and I waited multiple turns to attack hoping it would get resolved so I could move first. And I did not log in because I was waiting. Meanwhile America again moved and the issue remained unresolved, leaving me in the unhappy position of having to quickly take my turn second, which in turn placed me in the position where the only time I could move last turn was in a quick few minutes before work, which of course makes play sloppy. (which may be why i missed that the Rifles didn't reload as I clicked them to.)

I understand your sensitivity to having your victory undone and having the game reloaded to before your attack, giving your enemy foreknowledge. I understand all too well,which is why I did not make the mistake of attacking before the Japan/India reload was resolved. All I want now is the same courtesy.

[Aztecs (DoE)]

@Vikings: sadly the proof needs a reload.

Reload after the Ottomans did their turn, I do not login until the next turn, play my turn as I did (so the original play order is kept) and then the proof is that then exactly happens what did happen:

the Ottomans get surprised, Miami is reconquered and his fleet of 6 galleons gets destroyed, with addtional losses of a cannon and a riffleman ..