Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Oops cross posted with RP, apologies. Ignore my blah blah if you already saw it.

Thanks for your time deciding Robert, I don't envy your position.

Please pause for me as I am at work.

[Robert]

Indisputable Decision

I have read all posts and understand the difficult situation.
It seems like both involved parties made a human mistake:

- Ottomans made an in-game mistake (not unloading armies)
- Aztecs made an illegal double move (after they did a 2nd peek-login which destroyed their first position in the turn order)

Usually the Ottoman mistake would be an "oooops, that sucks for you but there's nothing we can do about it" situation.
Usually the Aztec mistake would be undone by a reload in which the double move occurred.

Now the Aztecs did something that *might* not have given them an advantage (we must believe them). In that case we normally would consider to do a reload like the Aztecs suggested. A reload that undoes the '2nd peek login' but doesn't give the Ottomans the opportunity to counter the attack with the knowledge he has now.

That is what Ozzy and mzprox both suggested / agreed with.

Now we can spend hours and days to discuss if this reload would be the best thing to, even if the Ottomans made a mistake as well that they want to be undone. It would be a Solomons ruling to make. In that case I would, as the best thing next to Solomon (since he's not here), rule to reload just before the Aztec peek-login b/c that's what mzprox (independent observer) and OzzyKP (co-game leader) suggested.

BUT that option is not possible because I do not have such a save file. The only two save files I have are:
- Ottoman login save (before the 2nd peek login of the Aztecs)
- Arabian login save (after the 2nd peek login of the Aztecs)
And those are all saves I have of the past turns. (and the Russian login, but that occurs before the Ottomans logged in, so it's irrelevant). All other saves are undone by civs logging in during this turn, overwriting their login save.

So what I now decide to do is to reload the game by using the OTTOMAN AUTO LOGIN SAVE of the past turn.
That means that the Ottomans have to play their turn again. (and all players that played after the Ottomans).

It gives a chance to both the Ottomans AND the Aztecs to undo their mistakes.
I think it's a fair decision because after all the Aztecs are responsible themselves for creating the confusion. They should simply not have logged in. I may sympathize with them (not for who they are but for what they did: make a silly mistake), and for pragmatic reasons that may have caused in the reload the Aztecs suggested. But that's not possible.

The other option would be a reload of the current turn.
But by reloading past turn at the beginning of the Ottomans login both parties have a chance to undo their mistakes.

This decision can't be disputed.
Not because it's perfect but just only because some decision has to be made.
I'm starting the server now, will take some time, give it 10 minutes at least.

[China (DoE)]

Just finished reading all this.

I understand the call to have those involved settle the issue, but I would argue that the two mistakes involved are quite different. Making a mistake in-game, by moving to the wrong tile, or not unloading troops, is, IMHO, very different than logging in a second time as the Aztecs did. But I leave it up to Ozzy.

(then again, he is the same guy who got the topless picture rule wrong. )

Speaking of in-game mistakes, I remember a good one a number of games ago. I was moving a settler when our cat walked across my keyboard, hitting the 'S' key placing a city not where I wanted it, and which became a serious diplomatic issue. Thomas, the cat in question, at least made it into the story thread as the local and very inept governor who was soon sacked by the Emperor.

[France (DoE)]

Just finished reading all this.

I understand the call to have those involved settle the issue, but I would argue that the two mistakes involved are quite different. Making a mistake in-game, by moving to the wrong tile, or not unloading troops, is, IMHO, very different than logging in a second time as the Aztecs did. But I leave it up to Ozzy.

(then again, he is the same guy who got the topless picture rule wrong. )

Speaking of in-game mistakes, I remember a good one a number of games ago. I was moving a settler when our cat walked across my keyboard, hitting the 'S' key placing a city not where I wanted it, and which became a serious diplomatic issue. Thomas, the cat in question, at least made it into the story thread as the local and very inept governor who was soon sacked by the Emperor.

[Robert]

reading now.....

[America (DoE)]

cool

[India (DoE)]

I have logged in to take some screens, but I did not unpause the game. Will log in again and pause.

that is strange, I paused the game, but it does not seem to be stopped according to playyourturn.com

is there anything else I have to do aside from hitting "Pause"??

[America (DoE)]

Did somebody unpause the game again...? According to PYT, a lot of people logged in after me.

[India (DoE)]

which turn are we talking about reloading to? I had a decisive sea battle in 1732 that I can not accept be undone.

[America (DoE)]

Americans. No worries at all. I thought the way you quoted my terms was great storytelling and totally appropriate to your IC needs... great stuff keep it up

Thanks I meant the last terms, about the unconditional treaty that I put in the org thread, which led to some surprise with the Russians, would have been better to wait until the double move issue has been resolved and then put it in a story post, which will of course happen, but now I spoiled the surprise thinking it might be important for resolving the double move issue (which it may well be, but I could have discussed that in PM's); you're right, the other treaty proposals were (ab)used by us poor Americans to rally support

And I am definitely enjoying this diplo game as well, it's very very cool how this is all turning out, all the intrigue, the passion etc, great stuff

[OzzyKP]

Too early to call, but this is definitely one of the best games we've played. I think the world map helps.

[BranksDilly]

I just logged in OOC to say that I am loving this game! The political dynamics are so interesting, and I'm saying this as a nation not currently involved in any wars.

I love how the civs in the Americas are rallying against a foreign invasion, brilliant! Again, saying this as someone completely not involved, but by doing that they've sent quite a message to other would-be invaders.

Long live Apolyton!

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

*sits in a corner, rocking back and forth, looking up*

...please don't raze my capital, please don't raze my capital, please don't raze my capital...



PS Ottomans, sorry about talking about the terms, I thought it would be important for the reload, but I should have kept them private for the game's sake now that I'm reading the conversation. My bad. Damn Americains

Americans. No worries at all. I thought the way you quoted my terms was great storytelling and totally appropriate to your IC needs... great stuff keep it up

@ Natives - reloads should be done according to the rules, not according to anyones subjective opinion about what has the least impact. Reload is the minimum needed to remove the violation, which would be a reload to beginning of current turn. And if anyone should face 'consequences' from the relod it should be the one who broke the rules not the one who is 'innocent' in terms of rulebreaking.

And you are in error... the breach of rules was the DoW not the second login which is why undoing the second login is not appropriate.

[Inca (DoE)]

My opinion on the matter is that those not involved settle the matter.

[Native America (DoE)]

I see no reason that the reload can't be from after the Ottoman move in "Turn 1". The fact that the Ottomans made a "mistake" (leaving themselves vulnerable to attack by the Aztecs) has nothing to do with the breach of rules by the Aztecs. Had the Aztecs followed the rules, then the Ottomans would still be in trouble. Making the Aztecs play by the rules should not be a bootstrap to get the Ottomans out of trouble for over-extending themselves. The correction for a rule breach should always be the minimum needed to repair the damage caused by the rule breech.