New type of diplo game

[Babylon (DoD)]

so you could grab the first spot in the order back ... In fact it does the same as a reload

That isn't quite true, since the city doesn't resurrect itself.

However, we are where we are. I have moved as suggested. I trust that others will do what they say and deal with it IG.

[Babylon (DoD)]

The Great Conclave once more found itself at war.

The initial reports were grim. The worst weather of the millenium allowing Sumaria to bring transports to join its well-known submarine fleet off-shore without being spotted by the aircrews. The cruse missile and marine attack on the ancient academic city of Sushan. The deliberate exterminiation of the population - the burning of the city, marines killing all they could find, submarines torpedoing anyone taking flight in small boats. A population which had survived Egyptian occupation, and had begun to rebuild in the new era of peace, savagely massacred. Destruction only previously seen in the Viking capture of the Celtic ancient city of Vienne and in Sumarians earlier conquests of France, the Maya and the Chinese.

International news reporters were shocked. This was evil on a scale not seen since medieval times. Perhaps the world will see the truth.

The Great Conclave privately also shocked at the betrayal by the Sumarians. Just one year before the sneak attack, when the marines must already have been en route, they had received the following communication from the Sumarians:

Holy Sages,

Sumeria cannot fight Egypt, even with your aid, other than by using nukes. It is sad but true. Modern Armour and Mechanised Infantry will not be possible to best on Egypt’s own lands unless huge cunning is employed and massive losses accepted.

I applaud your gallant efforts to defeat the beast when he invaded you with superior forces but offence is far harder.

Rome is very different. I think that they will lose Egyptian support when their cultural onslaught takes away an Oil Well. We could make quick gains there and finish them off as a meaningful power. Their army is very large but also very largely obsolete. Destroy their means of constructing modern weapons and they will fall like grapes from a vine. I can destroy their entire Oil supply in 1 move using 2 old horsemen based in Egypt. No Oil means no Tanks or Aircraft and together we can easily out produce them.

The same tactic might, of course, work against Egypt. This would require tacit Roman support as well as 100% commitment from Gondor. Take away their means of production and, despite fearful losses at the beginning, we could just prevail. It would be a huge gamble and I would be wide open to an attack from the Russo-American Alliance. Likewise, you would need to throw everything into such an attack and accept that you will lose 3/4 of your army within the first few turns. You also risk Roman treachery, The Holy Shrine itself may fall, and likewise all your colonies could be flying the Russian flag. Are you prepared to do this?

In short, we can defeat Rome, we might just defeat Egypt, but we must first break their friendship, as we stand no chance against the 2 combined
Gilgamesh.

Well now even the most blind or tricked nation can see clearly the true nation of the Sumarians, exterminators of the French, Maya and Chinese, faithless.

Then, as the Great Conclave wondered what the future would bring, the Messianic Warrior entered.

"Good news my lords. Now that the Hindu fleet has shaken off its stupor and the effect of the weather, it has already exterminated half of the Sumarian attack fleet. Transports, destroyers, submarines and marines. The rest are fleeing back to Sumarian but will not make it. The navy will not rest until it has proved that if it were not for the Sumarian trickery, Hindustan would have remained protected."

The Messianic Warrior slid out to return to the front, as the foreign ambassadors entered.

[Rome (DoD)]

Gilgamesh of the Sumerians,

Please explain the communication that the Hindustani made public.
Is it really yours? Is it original? Are you indeed plotting against Rome?
I hoped that we had signed good peace and trust in the past time.

I am waiting for your explanation.

Augustus of Rome

[Sumeria (DoD)]

To answer some questions:~

1. Babylon seems to refuse to accept that it is possible to make an honest mistake. I am saddened by this, especially, as the first things I did were to apologise for my oversight and to say that I was happy for a re-load.
2. I also said it would have made no difference. In answer to you Robert; I do not take screen-dumps or save turns for later examination so no I cannot provide these. You do have all the saves and I ask that you open both mine and Babylon's on the turn of my attack and see what Babylon could have done to stop it. If you wish let everyone look at my save, I will sacrifice any secrecy to prove my honesty here, or pass to a neutral party to study them and pass judgement. His Destroyers were out of range and there was no air screen to detect Transports at the range they were sitting. Most telling of all is that the only Transport vessel he did possess anywhere near the area was an old Galleon sitting in an otherwise unoccupied City.
3. The attack had long been planned as the distances are great for a Transport to cover. It should have been detected earlier, I expected it to be, which is the only reason 2 Transports were sent as they were travelling on a one-way ticket.
4. It must be obvious that my intent was always just to raze the city as I could never hold it. I am sorry if this offends some people but I have done this before on a number of occasions so it should come as no surprise.
5. I have, from the start, played Sumeria as a murderous and amoral state that cares nothing for life or death - even of its' own citizens - if it achieves the aims of its' rather unpleasant ruling dynasty. Gilgamesh is a fascistic, lying, treacherous, conniving bully because I have made him so - that is role-play - but I am not.
6. I am very saddened by this. I do know Babylon's identity, I can spot his spelling in an instant, but nobody else's. That he should feel so ill of me is terrible as we have always got on well in passed Diplo's and I find it incredible that he can think I would plan to cheat him deliberately - especially when he must know that if the turn flipped without either of us playing, which is what would have happened had I remembered to check, the result would have been unaffected. I would simply have attacked immediately the following turn as no double-move rule can accommodate indefinite inactivity on anyone's part. Again, the result would have been the same as nothing could save that city, barring divine intervention, and I somehow doubt that The Almighty would consider the result of a computer game as any part of his remit!
7. In terms of other identities; I could guess at Deity, I doubt it is Rome, unless we have another person who enjoys taunting Englishmen. However, I do know that I have played all of you, one probable exception, previously. This does include all but one of the eliminated players, whose identities, except Vikings, I do know. We are a relatively small community, reputation is important and this potentially impacts very badly on mine.

[Rome (DoD)]

Sumeria, don't go.
Babylon answered after he lost a city, believing someone then did something on purpose is not unusual. Especially not since he has been double moved upon before.

Like has been said earlier, nobody would DM on purpose because everybody knows that it always comes out.
If you were about to attack an island city and there were no destroyers or transports were close, then it would indeed not have made a difference.

Stay, we're in an amazing game. Don't play the "I leave card" please.
Let's not make this bigger then it is.

I also suggest that from now on we also for this game reload every double move. Just to avoid all problems. Just my opinion.

[Rome (DoD)]

And answer my question

[Robert]

Game has been paused for Sumeria.
Sumeria: there's no reason to leave.

[Egypt (DoD)]

would be good if people already learn the lesson that one should never do double moves because it always leads to arguments so better triple check before moving.
It is true that reloading would make no difference in this case because Babylon was about to skip the whole turn, if we reloaded Babylon couldnt do anything without accusation that He prepares for a war which He should not know about.
I think all the critics about the city razing was in character so that's a different story.
Anyway I don't believe sumeria used the DM deliberately, all of us were ready to solve this issue constructively so lets just move on.

[Robert]

I'm going to sleep.
There's 2.47h on the counter. I'm not going to unpause now b/c I don't know what Sumeria is up to.
*sigh*

Can we never have normal wars?

[Babylon (DoD)]

Sumaria,

I am sorry if my annoyance at the situation, and in particular at how people responded to it, has hurt you.

I am happy to accept that you didn’t intent to gain advantage by a DM.

Part of my hesitation in saying this earlier was that I know that in other threads you have argued strongly that exactly this sort of move (move, declare, assault) should be allowed – and in particular that it should be allowed in naval assaults. I can see that my reading of this situation through that knowledge has been unfortunate.

In your posts you have focused on whether my move could or could not have prevented the city being captured, criticising my defence. I am not sure things are necessarily as definite as you suggest – troops can move a long way by railway and then be loaded and unloaded without any movement points, as well as being drafted. And there are aircraft spotting on that coast. But I can’t be clear at all about what might have been possible, perhaps you can. But I have never focused just on whether than city would have fallen or not. I have certainly never complained occ about raising. Having a move would have ensured I could strike back against your navy, ensuring that you weren’t able to destroy further cities as you said you would/could and preparing for retaliation action. Focusing just on whether the city would have fallen or not seemed like a distraction.

As people have said, the problem with DM is that they can never be undone. This game was on the basis of no reloads and I think we have reached a reasonable outcome IG. It’s been a difficult 24 hours. I haven’t enjoyed it. I know you haven’t, but I hope we can move on. I accept it was a mistake and I think we have managed to patch things up IG.

[Sumeria (DoD)]

Thank you Babylon.

You really could have done nothing as that was the target city and I made certain that there was nothing close enough. Anything else would have been a bonus as that force was on a suicide mission with the sole aim of obliterating 1 city. You do not invade anyone with a few Marines and Artillery. With the switch in turn order it is pretty certain I have lost more than I would have done, game is paused so I cannot login to see, if things had happened differently.

Rome, thank you as well. I did feel very badly about what was said, got angry, but should not have added point 8 to my response. I will edit and remove it.

Hopefully, we can continue this now in good spirit as it has been a good natured game throughout.

[Sumeria (DoD)]

Augustus,

Of course the document is a fabrication! I congratulate the Hindu scribe who did the job for it is a very good forgery indeed.

This, supposed, proposition of a possible attack on either Rome or Egypt is based upon a reply sent to Babylon regarding their suggestion of joint military action against Egypt. They proposed, as a second option, an attack upon Rome.

I really do applaud the cleverness of the scribe who did this wonderful work. It paraphrases me excellently and rips entire sentences out of the original communique to place them in such a way so as to give an entirely different meaning.

For your interest here is the genuine document.

Holy Sages,

I applaud your gallant efforts to defeat 'the beast' when he invaded you with superior forces but what you suggest is sheer folly.

Sumeria cannot fight Egypt, even with your aid, other than by using nukes. Modern Armour and Mechanised Infantry will not be possible to best on Egypt’s own lands unless huge cunning is employed and massive losses accepted. Also where lies the gain in such a move for Sumeria? Egypt has never been hostile to me before and the Pact of Non-Aligned Nations is a very strong deterrent to her changing that policy.

Rome is very different. I think that they will lose Egyptian friendship when their cultural onslaught takes away an Oil Well. If, big if, Egypt attacks them then we could make quick gains there and finish them off as a meaningful power. Their army is very large but also very largely obsolete and Egypt will capture their means of constructing modern weapons quickly. Their cities would fall like grapes from a vine. I myself could destroy their entire Oil supply using a few old horsemen based in Egypt and Hindustan so imagine what Egypt herself could do. Roman strategic supply points are easily reached and no Oil means no Tanks or Aircraft and Egypt can easily out produce them. I have to ask you as to why Sumeria would want a crushed Rome? What advantage would come from doing this for I can see far greater perils than gains?

A similar tactic would never work against Egypt. This would require tacit Roman support as well as 100% commitment from Gondor. It would be a ludicrous gamble as I would be wide open to an attack from the Russo-American Alliance and you would need to throw everything into such an attack and accept that you will lose 3/4 of your army within the first few turns. You also risk Roman support of Egypt, The Holy Shrine itself may fall, and likewise all your colonies could be flying the Russian flag. Are you really prepared to do this because I can tell you that I am not!

In short, we could aid in the defeat of Rome, we might just defeat Egypt - assuming, of course, that you don't mind seeing Hindustan an irradiated heap of rubble - but even if we did succeed in either scheme others would profit far more than we would.

Feel free to dig your own grave my friend but do not attempt to persuade Sumeria to share your coffin.

Gilgamesh

I think you may note that the genuine transcript and the fabricated have a number of differences.

Gilgamesh

[deity]

So, Sumeria and Babylon, well done.

It is a very good natured game and we always seem to overcome obstacles with great spirit. The diplomatic nature of the game has also been thoroughly enhanced!!

I think you can just login an unpause to finish the turn now?

[Robert]

I'm unpausing now and keeping an eye on it to see if Sumeria moves.

[Robert]

Paused the game again.
Sumeria: please let me know when ready!