The Dance of Civilizations [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread Pt1]

[India (DoC)]

Fortunately I didnt want to declare war anyway.
But I'm thinking: it should be absolutely legal to ask for fixed turn order with someone, in cases like this. Same as I would declare war in character/story but wouldnt actualy declare war ingame-probably I would do it later, but I want fixed turn order before that.
While I was not war with Byzantium technically, it was a very war-like situation, timing is important in planning.
These kind of declarations won't always led to war, but when war occurs it is much easier to avoid the situation when you cannot declare it because it would be a double move.

Let's see a hypotetical situation:
I'd like to declare war on Byzantium next turn

Current turn order
-India
-Byz

I want to keep that way, I want that the next turn look like this:
-India; Declares war
-Byz; whut?

But I'm not always (just almost) front of my computer, since there was not war before, Byzantium can move before me in the next turn, take an extra move which maybe I wouldnt want them to do.
To avoid this I make a war declaration after they made their turn (I can not log in the first turn because I'd lose the right to move first in the next) so I only declare war in the story/org thread and ask that the turns should be fixed from now on.
ok if you understand all these (remember, only hypotetical ) what do you think?

[Russia (DoC)]

Russia says: well this all depends if an attack is coming. If a double move is used for the express purpose of gaining an advantage in a war to be declared, then it should due to the spirit of the law be disallowed.

I don't know the details or how this would possibly affect turn order.

[Byzantium (DoC)]

India - I do see your point about turn order, that a completely unintended consequence of my using the fact that we are at peace to complete a particular move of my ships, means that you can't have both (a) the turn order you would like and (b) to declare war on me on one particular turn. I am kind of sorry for that, in that it wasn't my intention to create a particular turn order issue, but as is clear I am unrepenent at using a particular legitimate tactic to benefit my shipping. 'Double moves' in teh general sense you are using the word, as opposed to the sense in our rules of a wartime double move, happen all the time, and sometimes do bring advantages such as getting to a city site first, hiding troop movements from spying eyes etc., but of course tend to be followed by the other civ then having a 'double move' as you have just had against me.

Furthermore, while I have no desire to hide the fact that on this occasion I did move at the end of one turn and the beginning of the next for a partiuclar purpose, in fact I would probably have done so anyway. If you check the record you will see that often if a turn turns over in the late evening for me, I will often play my turn, the turn turns over, and then I play again. I'm not at war so I do often use the convenience of doing that.

[Robert]

Just login first next turn, and the turn order is back as it was.

[India (DoC)]

No, sorry India. You can certainly declare war on me if you want. And if at some point in the future I ever declare war on you, I will try to fit in with the turn order of you and your existing enemies. But I can't agree that you can make a 'wartime double move' on me (i.e. the sort of double move banned by the rules, which include the turn before war). I have broken no rules, because we are not at war; I deserve to have the same protection that you and everyone else has against a wartime double move.

So basicaly because of your double move I cannot declare war in next turn to keep that turn order which we had for several turn before. The only way I could declare war is to make it -Byz-Ind-rest of my enemies- which is not good. So I guess I won't/can't declare war next turn. If next turn Byz moves before me -and I cannot ask them to not to because we are not at war- then the same situation remains.. I still can not declare war the way I wish.
(I want to stresss that this may look like a serious complain, but it isn't.. it's just a pity we couldnt keep the turn order for this reason.. the other reason to give the other player rection time is about fairness/strategy depending on how we look at it)

[Persia (DoC)]

Then just let India login first next turn (without him being allowed to declare war).
After that the turn order is fixed.

[Byzantium (DoC)]

No, sorry India. You can certainly declare war on me if you want. And if at some point in the future I ever declare war on you, I will try to fit in with the turn order of you and your existing enemies. But I can't agree that you can make a 'wartime double move' on me (i.e. the sort of double move banned by the rules, which include the turn before war). I have broken no rules, because we are not at war; I deserve to have the same protection that you and everyone else has against a wartime double move.

[India (DoC)]

NO!

If you want to be first in the turn order, you have to be first in the turn before you declare war. (or Byzantium must declare war after you already played your turn)

Bottom line: if you want to be first, login first next turn without declaring war and then keep logging in first every turn till war starts.

I did not ask you..
Byzantium said I can declare war and that He kept the turn order in mind when moved, so I ask him to confirm that I can move first and declare war.

[Robert]

NO!

If you want to be first in the turn order, you have to be first in the turn before you declare war. (or Byzantium must declare war after you already played your turn)

Bottom line: if you want to be first, login first next turn without declaring war and then keep logging in first every turn till war starts.

[India (DoC)]

I'd prefer you didn't declare war against me, but if you wish to, be my guest.

I'd prefer if you wouldn't have 8 possibly loaded transports 3 tiles away from my Holy city.. this is more than enough insult for a war.
Ok, just to be absolutely clear about this: IF I decide to go war then can I start the turn and declare-and that way restore/keep the turn order that I go first and my enemies after me?

[Byzantium (DoC)]

Thanks India. I guess its one of these cases where what looks like a clever move to one person looks a bit underhand to another. Timing of declarations of war are crucial though. Remember the Russian annihilation of the Persian army long ago, all because of the precise timing of a declaratoin of war, with its effect on open borders etc? I often find myself with hindsight thinking 'i should have declared war earlier' though often I didn't because I was still hoping peace would be found, didn't want to appear the aggressor, wanted a few more turns to upgrade/move troops into position etc. I'd prefer you didn't declare war against me, but if you wish to, be my guest.

[India (DoC)]

I dont think a debate is necessary, others can't really see what's happening there anyway.
I was thinking about declaring war (every turn ) but in the end I didnt want to "take it" from Byzantium

[Robert]

What do other (not involved) players think?
Byzantium did a double move while NOT being in war. (thus not agains the rules).
This did give an advantage for a possible war that may or may not happen.

Personally I believe that if India did not want this to happen, it should have declared war alerady. I understand that India was waiting to intercept the fleet while passing by. I think by game mechanics and rules India should then have declared war in advance to prevent this double move from happening.

But that's a personal opinion, not a game-leader opinion.
I'd like to hear what other (not involved!) players think about this. Russia, Ottomans, Arabia, Rome, Inca?

[Persia (DoC)]

Then it was your anticipation

[India (DoC)]

No hard feelings but still don't like it. Now all my fleet was useless to stop Byzantium because of this double move, and the important thing is that it couldnt have been done without double move.. it is some kind of exploit of the game mechanism.
Btw Byzantium's army is in range, I could attack them but according to the rules I cant be the first in the turn order because that would be a double move. So if I want to declare war next turn ( a possibility) I have to do it after Byzantium moved.

And I don't get what are you talking about persia, I didn't plan any war with you to think about turn order.. it was your doing.