The Dance of Civilizations [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread Pt1]

[Robert]

I have edited the statement above. I've added the underlined statemens because I believe that some things were there implicit but not explicit, while they should be explicit.

[Robert]

Ok, game is up again.
14 hours on the clock.

Loaded before login of Greece, so no Greek war on England.
Few points I want to make:

1. With the knowledge of today it would have been better if Byzantium would not have moved for England, but under those circumstances AND because Byz had no ooc-malicious intend, we cannot blame Byz in an ooc way. It's good that Byz in public (soft deleted by me) already said that he should indeed not have moved for England.
I want to insist that I do believe that Byzantium has acted honest ooc (and backstabbing ic, which is obviously allowed).

2. It would have been better if England would have raised his concerns regarding Byzantium only in an PM to me. Posting accusations in public is against the rules. But under those circumstances it's understandable that we all sometimes say things we regret later. I am not holding it against England and I think none of us should. It would be good though if England would admit that (the ooc accusations were false) in public though.

3. Under normal circumstances without a forced player switch for Greece, a Greek invasion of England would have been acceptable. (though poorly backed up story wise) (poorly = not). But since Greece just had a FORCED player switch (where the original Greek player would NEVER have attacked England), it is not acceptable for the game. This is nothing we can hold against OzzyKP for he did only what's best for Greece. But this is not only about Greece but also about the Good for the entire Game and about letting England not being the victim of a forced player switch.

I am going to let the game continue now anyway.
We've all had a 24h time out.

This is the deal. I know that it won't be perfectly what all involved party want it to be. So be it. We can't have it all 100% our way.

It's only 10 turns till the end. I will be very disappointed if any player would not be able to play those last pesky 10 turns.
There'll be another 400 turns in another game where we can backstab eachother again (after we figured out the right identities ) (some people might be backstabbed for something they did not do themselves in a past game because someone else (most probably an aussie) did the wrong match )

Guys, it's been an awesome game, I love you all, thanks for everybodies cooperation and game fun!
It's only 10 T-E-N tiny turns (or 12? Will you hurry India?).

Let's all wrap up our stories, rate twice and then let the right player win! (apart from India)



edit: I have edited the statement above. I've added the underlined statemens because I believe that some things were there implicit but not explicit, while they should be explicit.

[Robert]

yes, I wait for England to wake up and confirm, then I'll load it up.

[Orb (DoC)]

So is the game going to be up soon or not?

[Robert]

Some posts moved to this newly debate thread: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?t=190784

[Robert]

Ok, things get out of hand if we get a new parallel argument about what Greece did do or did not do.

With all respect to the Greek sub (no pun intended, I'm serious here!), I will be pragmatic here and chose the value of having original England continue to play more important then to find a satisfying way to answer to Greece. That's a bit harsh to Ozzy, eventhough that is not intended.

For the greater good of the game I can only decide that I will reload the game from the moment when Greek joined (and declared war on England).

We can have a lengthy debate about the question if what Greece did was right or wrong, but it serves no purpose here. So I'd say: Maybe Ozzy is right, but we won't listen to him for the greater good of the game.

I hope that Ozzy wants to sub nonetheless, otherwise we'll ask Pinchak to sub, or maybe make it an AI.

I'll also soft-delete new responses to prevent the argument from exploding.

[OzzyKP]

The reasoning by asking Korea/Greece to be splitted (b/c the alliance between Korea and England) was to keep Greece an independant nation.

I kinda agree that a sub for only 10-15 turns should not, without a story, go rampant on the English just only because it's possible.
I suggest that we go back to the autosave I used last night to recover and then we ask Greece to restrain itself.

Anybody has a problem with that?

I do!

There was no conspiracy about putting me in Greece. The former player had a choice whether he would take Greece or Korea. I think CS knew that something was going to happen and it would be a conflict of interest to have the same person play Greece and Korea in this situation. So I got called in.

I learned of the Byzantine war only through his post in the forum. I had no prior contact with him or... anyone since I wasn't playing a civ the last few turns. I came in and immediately assessed the strategic situation I found myself in. I was in last place (in a civ I knew had been in last place for a very long time). Next to me was a first place civ (who had been in the top three for a very long time) who was now on the losing end of a war with another power.

I noticed also that England had recently taken a city from me (Greece) via culture. I noticed that that same stolen city had no defense in it. I noticed further that I had several curssairs within striking distance of a pretty nice city that was causing pretty serious culture problems for my cities that was defended by only one infantry. Finally, I noticed that I wouldn't be double moving if I attacked, so I should take my opportunity.

Was it opportunistic? Sure. But it was smart and it was legal. There is zero reason for OOC whining about it. The former Greece didn't complain when the #1 power took a city from the last place power. Why are there complaints if Greece takes it back?

So, to sum up:

1. I had no OOC advantage or knowledge that informed my decision.
2. There were no OOC grudges or personality reasons for my decision.
3. Greece was in last place and attacked a first place civ.
4. That first place civ had recently taken a city from that last place civ.
5. England had seriously let their defenses down and presented an opportunity.
6. I posted in the story thread right as I was playing the turn, so don't say there was no story reason. I presented one.
7. The game is almost over, why not give a tiny civ the chance to better itself?
8. The alliance we had was hardly a long term arrangement. Persia and Byzantium had themselves already broken the alliance, why not Greece too?
9. Times change, leaders change, situations change. Greece & England were once at war with each other. Then they were allies. Now it is war again. Nothing wrong with that.
10. It was a very wise strategic decision. Greece had a chance to ride on the coat tails of a larger civ to avenge past wrongs and claim some spoils. Nothing wrong with that. No doubt Greece will gain a new friend out of it.

Reloading the turn would turn out rather bad for Greece. But whatever. Another civ has asked me to sub, maybe we should just let Greece go AI, I could sub for that other civ. If Greece isn't allowed to improve itself, then why am I wasting my time playing it? Just let it go AI.

[Egypt (DoC)]

Oh, no, I agree that things went too far, and I don't know how you feel, can only guess That's why I voiced my opinion, agreeing that it's gone too far with the last act after you so graciously, despite your hurt feelings, decide to suck it up and play again, I thought that was really cool.

Just wanted to point out that people made stupid moves, that it is good to call them out on it, and that so far I think this whole group has been really reasonable regarding judging such incidents; the game is stopped, we talk about it, we come to a consensus under the expert guidance of mr Plomp, and all's well again. And I think we can count upon that now as well.

Like you say, just trying to bring in some lightness in this issue, but it's totally up to you of course how you feel about everything.

[England (DoC)]

Egypt thanks for the light view on things. I am not threatening to quit the game, i did actually quit earlier today, but Robert came in and asked me to comeback to finish it, because it will be good for the game. I did suck it up and asked the game to play on. But come one you need to be made out of iron to not get pissed at this 2nd from nowhere uppercut.

So no threats Egypt, just actual facts. It is hard not to take it personal when you spend like 300 or something days playing this game. And just at the end yes end 10 turns or something you get back stabbed, which you eventually refresh and decide to continue playing and then an ally a nation you personally saved from devastation from the Arabs decides to have some fun on your account.

So the yo man, that's a crap thing to do may work to some, but being rolled over like this has its limits.

And please i have grown tired all day listening to pms well this has happened to me before i know how you feel. Well sorry you do not know, this is a new record.. I do not remember in the past diplo games someone taking such a punch... and many acting as its normal..

It seems many if us have a different understanding of the word integrity, what happened to the fun phrase for Diplo games - Allow all to have fun in the game..

[Egypt (DoC)]

Yeah, that is a bit full on, I agree with England, and I don't mind going back to the save. And also guys and especially England, let's not get too worked up about everything that is happening. I mean, it's just a few bad calls, there's nothing wrong with telling each other that it's bad here OOC, and then the 'community' will step in and sort it out, which worked very well and decent so far. I wouldn't take it personal, it's a game, just go "hey yo, isn't that a crap thing to do?" and we'll all go "yo man, that's a crap thing to do, let's undo it" and everything's sorted, without having to resort to threats of quitting and whatnot, right? Or have I gone soft because I've played Egypt for too long

[Persia (DoC)]

Iran prefers a small England AND a small Byzantium, hence we support a bigger Greece!!!!

But for ooc reasons I'll not voice any objections to the question if anybody object to a pre-Greece invasion of England

I'll obviously support England in them keeping just enough cities to stay ahead of Byzantium and just below Iran, but that's just because I'm pretty selfish! (the Hastogianistic spirit is deep in the vains of the Iranians, if they deny it or not )

[Byzantium (DoC)]

I would be fine with that - I was rather surprised by the Greek action too - see my story post trying to ensure that the Greeks didn't come in on England's side. But I think that the whole 2 players playing 3 nations thing hasn't been good for a long time, and I'm not sure I would criticise Greece for taking an opportunity (4th and 14th ranked nations attacking 1st who has an alliance with 7th is hardly over the top) . Nevertheless questions about what is good/appropriate for Greece is really not for me. Robert you asked if Byzantium would be happy with going to that save, and I am content to if that helps.

(I would want to alter the treaty proposal with England back to the original that England agreed since I only dropped Hastings because England was losing cities to the Greeks as well).

[Robert]

Game has been paused (down) as well

[Robert]

The reasoning by asking Korea/Greece to be splitted (b/c the alliance between Korea and England) was to keep Greece an independant nation.

I kinda agree that a sub for only 10-15 turns should not, without a story, go rampant on the English just only because it's possible.
I suggest that we go back to the autosave I used last night to recover and then we ask Greece to restrain itself.

Anybody has a problem with that?

[England (DoC)]

Sorry but this has gone over the top now a new Greek player comes in and takes over Greece my former ally and they attack and take my cities as well.

I was told by the former Greek player that he was told not to continue playing Greece and move on to Korea (just 1-2 turns ago Robert personally said that Greek player can play the both civs till the end), was this a planned think to free the Greeks so they can be taken by someone just to attack me, i do not know.

I did compromise on the Byzantium and wanted to continue, which was a huge sacrifice on my part, but this act by Ozzy has gone over the top.

Have a good game Guys!!! Sorry Robert but i will not have a gangbang on England just for the fun of it... Greece attack us, England who saved them from the Arabs what story reasons for war??...