The Dance of Civilizations [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread Pt1]

[LzPrst]

outright aggression is certainly allowed. May I reference Mongolia in HOTW12
but early aggression can be fatal, destroying the first settler or 2nd settled city is a huge setback. border treaties are one way of working around a cramped position, provided the involved parties are not powerhungry megalomaniacs... oh wait

[Orb (DoC)]

I meant both that you are and that you aren't.

Ahhh he may or may not kill me

[Rasputin]

Diplo does not prevent all out war. if you need to attack to gain land then do so. Even i as the weaker palyer expect to be attacked by the other civs if they looking for land or resources i have.

So St jon do what you have to do. It is the right of all civs to try to grow to an empire and 6-8 citys is not an empire.

So change tactics do as you must, just post plenty of stories about it.

If you going to be an aggresive civ, make sure it clear in the story thread that is who you are play that character.

[Orb (DoC)]

I'd wait to start showing your aggressive side in the story thread till a new discussion starts or you will give out who you are even more then you have already.

[Black Knight 427]

This map isn't so bad. At least it will get interesting alot faster then the last game.

[Robert]

It's really not good to have this discussion in an OOC manner.
And St Jon, perhaps the player you think you know may be someone else.

[St Jon]

It's really not good to have this discussion in an OOC manner.
And St Jon, perhaps the player you think you know may be someone else.

I hope so.

[Rasputin]

i just hope St Jon is not near me ...


Is that your axemen i see approaching ?

[St Jon]

i just hope St Jon is not near me ...


Is that your axemen i see approaching ?

i know you're not near me.

[OzzyKP]

Haha, I had a dream last night that two civs had built cities right on my cap's border.

[Mali (DoC)]

i agree that BtP was pure idiocy as to map design. so unbalanced it was a farce. Just plain WRONG. but that's just my opinion.

That's rather rude of you Lz. Pinchak busted ass to make that map for BtP. For you to trash it is like tearing down an artist. While you may not have liked the map, I'm sure Pinchak would prefer some constructive criticism rather than you blurting out your opinions so negatively.

[The Priest]

While I have sympathy with St Jon's cramping, it strikes me that early wars are a good thing, not a bad thing. The guidelines for 'measured war' written into our rules make the point that war is very much allowed in diplo. Diplo doesn't mean builder only, and while I have no complaints at all about the BtP map (I thought it was clever in lots of ways) the amount of space did mean there was little compulsion towards early war, but that doesn't need to set a tone for this game. A struggle between civs in the ancient period could be lots of fun, and keep the momentum going in the game now, rather than having months of slow development. But meanwhile the measured war concept ensure that while some might lose the early wars, it doesn't destroy the game for them. (Which may mean a need to grab some space from multiple neighbours, rather than annihilate one as one might do in SP. Just as in BtP Rome (before my time) grabbed two cities from Portugal and boxed Russia in (effectively grabbing a couple more) and made very favourable land deals with Persia (giving it a few more).

Having said all that, I hope St Jon isn't next to me! Time to start building those chariots ...

[LzPrst]

perhaps you're right Mali, but just because he worked hard on it doesn't make it good. Effort does not automatically = excellence, unfortunately. I must admit I did not see the entire map due to dropping out, but I saw the results of insanely unbalanced starts. Really really really unbalanced. That was what was wrong with it, in other words a hopeless distribution of resources for good cities for certain civs and areas and overoptimal opulent conditions for others. Some whole areas were devoid of any kind of production, others had no food. Some areas even lacked both! Now I like the idea of poor land, like the sahara desert or eurasian steppes being part of the game, but if a civ is gonna start in it, it's like shooting it in the foot before the race starts.

I don't know about all civs, but a lot of them as far as I could see had only one border neighbour. That makes diplomacy far less interesting and necessary, especially with the unbalanced land, since the bigger civ has no reason to negotiate with its weaker neighbour and the neighbour has little leeway in form of alliances. Especially since the distances were so vast that an ally couldn't bring help to another.

Of course it made things worse that the top civs banded together and aided eachother. I never understand why that happens, never. Other big civs are RIVALS that sooner or later must be dealt with. But that is not the maps fault, though I find it interesting that out of the first rate powers; Rome, Persia, Portugal and Khmers, 3 of them were neighbours on the same continent. That's a map issue in my opinion. You can say what you want about opportunities for poorer civs to find new lands across the sea, but all civs want that land and the big ones will beat them to it since Astronomy is a very expensive tech that the big civs will get first. If the map maker lays the foundation for several huge empires, they should at least be somewhat limited with regard to good ports if you want to give weaker civs any chance of getting there at all.

I can keep complaining until my head explodes, but I stand by my words. As a work of art I choose not to judge it, because it is not a work of art. It is a foundation to build upon. And if the foundation is crooked, I don't care how pretty it looks, anything built on it will collapse. As BtP did. You can say it was pretty to look at but it didn't fill it's purpose.

[The Priest]

I guess this isn't the place for this, but reading the above I do need to point out that Rome, Piercia and Portugal did fight! Rome and Piercia against Portugal was the first major war, and Piercia and allies agianst Rome was the second.

[St Jon]

I guess this isn't the place for this, but reading the above I do need to point out that Rome, Piercia and Portugal did fight! Rome and Piercia against Portugal was the first major war, and Piercia and allies agianst Rome was the second.

This time round you are the devil sitting too close to me!

Ill fortune I think all would agree,