The Dance of Civilizations [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread Pt1]

[India (DoC)]

Upon further consideration I've decided that I will withdraw from this war.

I don't want to be blamed taking anyone's fun from the game even if I strongly disagree with this kind of OOC regulation of one's movement and this kind of definition of "fun".
I know it is not just about me, but in general.. is it allowed to join in a conflict if you are stronger than any of the already warring civs? I'm sure we agree that this is not a simple yes or no situation.

In this particular event it was my best interest to join (still won't tell you why ), but it doesnt worth it if it leads to this kind of ooc argument.

so sorry Greece, and please ignore my last post in the story thread.

[England (DoC)]

No problem

[England (DoC)]

No worries India

[Persia (DoC)]

India, if you believe that your reasons are good, then continue it. I will then find out later that I was wrong.
Anyway, I think you show that you got an admirable character for willing to reconsider.

And for the record, I don't like it to do this ooc stuff, and I do realise that I am only a 1 person opinion, but I just place myself in the shoes of Arabia (Inca earlier) and just can't imagine that it's fun for those civs to walk into concrete walls.
I did the same for Russia earlier, and decided to stay out of their conflict with the Ottomans as well. (apart from some string pulling, needed for story flowing)

[Byzantium (DoC)]

Wow - you get up, go to work, log in and find shed loads of stuff has happened in under 24 hours.

My only comment occ is that we should probably all recognise how tricky it is to keep this game working well. Our rule set is good, but that still leaves much up to our judgement. The rules don't stop India invading Greece - just an example of top score and bottom score nation - as long as India doesn't take too many cities, since 'measured war' is about how much gain/loss not about balance, but we all know that that sort of attack of massive power against tiny is not on. But take a less extreme example and it gets more cloudy, and we all see the judgements differently. Some think its not on for Greece to lose anything because it is small, others think is fine for Arabs to aspire to grow by war (as long as its measured) with similar sized neighbours. We are probably not going to agree, and lets be honest its always mixed up with in game factors (and other occ stuff, like it seems to me that some found ozzy-arab's actions dubious becaues it was ozzy, it felt wrong for a sub etc., while others felt it was in keeping with original arab's intentions).

I've tried to keep my arguing IG, but I'm sure some occ reflection is helpful too. But its a tricky business, and I we are probably in agreement on much of the underlying stuff, just we all look on individual situations from different perspectives.

[Greece (DoC)]

SOLUTION

i agree on Byzantium sentiments and much else that has been said.

i think it is wrong for ooc to influence ic but it happens.

i don't like the line "let the little civs have their wars and no one (big) intervenes".

this strikes at the heart of diplo and is anti-diplo. imho.

we are trying to make a perfect balanced fun game for everyone at the expense of what the origins of diplo was all about: DIPLOMACY!

and i don't mean one on one diplomacy.

why can not the littlest nation have such powerful friends that it changes everything?

oh well, looks like you'll let me keep playing Greece till its end so i will, thankyou.

i will cancel all alliances and let the arabs have their little fun war - at least its better than the carve up idea.

so England, India and Korea please, thank-you, but no thanks!

[Persia (DoC)]

i don't like the line "let the little civs have their wars and no one (big) intervenes".

why can not the littlest nation have such powerful friends that it changes everything?

I'm sorry for not being able to explain myself clearly
Anyway, this is not what I try to say.

Big civs can intervene and small civs can have big friends.
Forget all I said and all please continue the way you want.

Bringing a nuanced message is impossible in the middle of a game. I am sorry.

[Korea (DoC)]

Seems that people are confusing size of civs to strength of civs.

obviosuly arabs are far stronger than greece and will totaly crush them

That for me signals the end of diplomoacy in this game.

What point is there if greece cannot be helped.

Rember WW1 started because one little arch duke was murdered in an obscure euopean country that no one cared about.

As for the timing of the game , the indians ahve mdoern detroyers patroilling the oceans so we are well beyonf the middle ages her eguys. It is the tech level of the leading nation that should control the type of real time behvious you looking for not the year in game or the techs of the backward civs.

Jsut because Rwanda civil war ws fought by tribes doesnt mean the UN didnt exist and didnt jump into try to stop it eventually.

If a nation like my own, shich is only high on point s due to Population not military strenght cant aid antoher country then this game is screwed,

This war is out of character for arabia woh qare the same religion as the greeks and yet everyone fogets that.

This war is not about expansion of hte arabs they had colniies already, it was a sheer grab by them for an easy target.

I am not enjoying this game right now, so i guess that will make me a target for attack too. i dont care, but you guys have allowed this war of detroyign a nation and yet prevent ed others you didnt like.

The IC reason for Korea supporting greece is we have been cut off from the Other TAOIST nations, fear India invsding us , hav epissed iff incas numerous times and need another friend ion the world.

so the neitghbour of our sole ally England is attacked it becomes very IC for Korea to try and use diplomacy to stop the war and gain a friend.

But no you guys have prevent ed that leaving korea isolated by your OOC decisions.

[Korea (DoC)]

for all knowledge i am the civ that cannot access a comouter with Civ 4 on it at moment so found a sub to paly theturns in game.

I make al lthe decision on what is happening who we negotiate with etc etc.

prior to that person taking over Greece i did quite openly warn ozzy that any attack on korea would mean help for greece would arrive.

it was after this that my sub offered t o sub for greece too. (he is so damn honest he doenst tell me of any discussiopns h ehaving depsite it maybe of itnerst to me )

so beign my turn player hasnt changed my diplomacy apart from listneing to some calming advice occasioanly.

[Persia (DoC)]

Korea: if you don't read my posts carefully, then don't comment on them.
I never said that Greece could not be helped. You clearly don't understand my point.

Once again, I'm sorry for trying to make a comment that's way too nuanced.
I should have known that people would make a caricature out of it.

I've dropped it already. Continue this war the way you planned it. I will not give anybody a bad rate. I'm ok with it. It's my fault. I'm to blame b/c I caused this confusion. It does bother me though that some people apparently can discuss these issues only in black/white schemes.

[Korea (DoC)]

Now what i need is a list of civs that peoiple regard as being equal size so i know when i can and cant get involved in a war

Byz = India = England = Persia so leave them to it.

Korea = Mail = Natives = Ottomans = Russia= Britania no one to interfer

Greeks = Arabs = Romans = Egypt = Inca

Is that about right...

[Korea (DoC)]

Korea: if you don't read my posts carefully, then don't comment on them.
I never said that Greece could not be helped. You clearly don't understand my point.

Once again, I'm sorry for trying to make a comment that's way too nuanced.
I should have known that people would make a caricature out of it.

I've dropped it already. Continue this war the way you planned it. I will not give anybody a bad rate. I'm ok with it. It's my fault. I'm to blame b/c I caused this confusion. It does bother me though that some people apparently can discuss these issues only in black/white schemes.

sorry but i couldnt see anytihng that said it allowed and you not the only one suggesting this.

already india have pulled...

i jsut want clarification

[Dubhghlas]

From the outside, for what it is worth (from someone who has been following along the story line for a couple months):

I did find the post from India a bit unusual, especially since it seems to preference the discussion of worrying about Greece with a statement that would indicate total lack of interest in the situation. I also found very unusual the lack of any indication that the things which have occupied India's thoughts for generations now were at play. The post itself almost read more OOC than in character.

But given the effort that the India player has made in pursuit of role-playing, I assumed that there would be follow-up to make the matter more in-character clear. Perhaps the issue for Persia is that it wasn't any more clear to that player than it was to me.

[Persia (DoC)]

Korea: the clarification is: give small civs like Arabia a chance to fight a war without getting 3 superpowers on it's back immediately.

Like I agree that Greece should get a chance to get some help to avoid being destroyed by Arabia. And you have not read very carefully since I have said several times already that help for Greece is not a problem at all. And I already think that Arabia went too far grabbing 3 cities from Greece.

But when Arabia invaded Britannia, England, Korea and India demanded Arabia to give everything back to Greece. As with the Inca. They start a war and can't move an inch and have to give it all back.

Are we getting at this point where gaining stuff through war is unacceptable?

[Korea (DoC)]

I hear your decision is now that it is ok to intervene, but is it the decision of all.

And if not i need that lsit of evenly matched civs os iknow where i stand next time i want to get involved or be aware of who i can attack witohut risk of getitng gnaged up on.

and unlike perhaps your self or others , i knew from my little spys around the world the size of the armeis involved so knew that greece could not protect it self.