The Dance of Civilizations [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread Pt1]

[Persia (DoC)]

I'm sorry if my post is a bit aggressive.
I'm just a bit annoyed that this question is being raised now while my plans were public for 3 weeks. I'm sorry.

[Egypt (DoC)]

I am really enjoying the stories both you and Russia write, and I think the whole deportation plan is epic. If Russia is ok with it, I don't see any problems, and it might even benefit Russia in the long run if Persia upholds its end of the bargain, due to the reasons Persia lists.

[Orb (DoC)]

I personally think the Exporting of Russia would in the long run be good for them. As long as Persia keeps to his word then Russia has a much better chance to grow then they ever would have if they remain where they are.

[OzzyKP]

I'm sorry if my post is a bit aggressive.
I'm just a bit annoyed that this question is being raised now while my plans were public for 3 weeks. I'm sorry.

I'm with Byzantium, I had always assumed it was IC bluster not an actual plan. Yikes... It is, of course, up to Russia, but it is hard to see how this is would be anything short of dooming Russia to last place for the rest of the game. The Ottomans tried a continent shift in HOTW12 and they never recovered from it.

[Persia (DoC)]

The alternative is worse for them.
But it's up to Russia. (in an ooc way)

Did the Ottomans in HOTW12 had backup from a big nation like Russia does?

[OzzyKP]

Yea, they did. And I think the new continent was bigger and had better land too.

[Persia (DoC)]

ooc post about this on December 12th

And like I said, the alternative is worse for Russia.
They decided to attack me, not visa versa.
Small nations should be protected a bit by the rules, but not that much that nothing can be done to them.

But for myself it'll be better to colonize New Russia myself and keep Russia as my slave. I doubt that would be much fun for them.

[England (DoC)]

England would like to say Merry Christmas to his friends and enemies

[OzzyKP]

ooc post about this on December 12th

And like I said, the alternative is worse for Russia.
They decided to attack me, not visa versa.
Small nations should be protected a bit by the rules, but not that much that nothing can be done to them.

But for myself it'll be better to colonize New Russia myself and keep Russia as my slave. I doubt that would be much fun for them.

They did attack you, and have to suffer the consequences. But don't forget that city was built by Russia and you attacked him first. And Persia benefited quite nicely from that war.

[Byzantium (DoC)]

Persia - sorry if you feel I should have raised this 3 weeks ago. But, I assumed that you knew the rules and, like Ozzy said, it was just bluster. Which is of course exactly why Theodosius has been steadily accusing you of arrogance, bluster, believing you are like a god able to move peoples across the world etc.

The whole 'measured war' concept was to allow a victor to gain from a war, and a loser to suffer, without one mistaken war, one 'trecherous backstab' being the end of that civ as we know it. Otherwise the game becomes too 'safe', nobody can risk war if the consequence is the threat of complete annihiliation.

Its a great story line, and if Russia is happy its hard for anyone else to raise a question. But Russia has every right to lose a bit in this war, as in the measure war rule, and then have a peace. Nobody is saying that nothing can be done to a small nation, just that the rules put boundaries on it.

I'm really sorry about the confusion that nobody objecting OOC to Fed'az proclamations seemed to imply to you that everyone thought that the threat against Russia was 'measured'. I understand what you mean when you say "I have tried to be very public about it so that I could abandon it early if all players would disagree" but you didn't actually ask the question. And its not for me or anyone else to object - all my post on here was doing was reminding RUSSIA that he could insist on a 'measure war' - i.e. given his size, losing a city or two or his colonies and having peace. The 'meaured war' thing is a protection for a losing country in a war, and as far as I can see Russia still has every right to claim that protection. Whether she wants to or not is up to her.

Perhaps time for some cold turkey - a seasonal thought - and maybe it will all seem easier or at least less heated.

[Byzantium (DoC)]

And, please, I am not doubting that you have tried to think of an imaginative solution for your Russian problem. We can all see that you are trying to be fair to them. I'm not questioning your good intentions; its just that they are not necessarily the most important thing.

[Ottoman Empire (DoC)]

Byzantium, I agree it sounds a little funny, you as a friend of Russia, now, after this many turns, coincidentally RIGHT after Russia loses the city they captured, begins crying foul.

Please answer: What is a measured response to the destruction of an entire army and the capture of a city?

1 city back? 2? 1 city and the disarmement of Russia?

[Byzantium (DoC)]

Oh come on, turning this into a personal matter between nations isn't going to help. I could just as well point out that you and Britannia, who have disagreed with me, stand to gain greatly from Persia's plans. (and I'm really not sure where this friend of russia stuff comes from).

I haven't cried foul to anything, because nothing has happened contrary to any rules. All I have done is pointed out that Russia has every right to appeal to our rules (and yes of course the timing isn't a coincidence - its only now when they are starting to lose that they might need to avail themselves of the rule!).

Measured war
A Civ Diplo Game has to balance two factors in war.
1. This is Civ - Warmongering, conquest and domination is a perfectly acceptable and honourable way to play. There is no intention that Diplo games need to be 'builder orientated' (though that is just as acceptable a strategy too).

2. This is Diplo - No civilisation should be crippled with the result that the game stops being fun for the player involved. This means that there is a balance to be struck. War is costly for the aggressor, building up forces while other nations race ahead, so the victor should be able to make real gains from the war. But if they gain too much, the loser may be crippled. Its impossible to make a hard and fast rule out of this, because that can just be exploited (e.g. a loser refusing to make a reasonable peace because 'the rule' will then kick in and save them). But as a guide, a 25% loss is an appropriate threshhold (loss being an overall measure, not just a city count - losing 3 tiny fringe cities may be much less of a loss than 1 major city). More than this may well be crippling the loser. But a loss/gain up to this probably is appropriate benefit for the victor. Again this can't be a rule - taking a small bite out of a neighbour every ten turns will cripple them, but having won a war against a neighour a millenium ago doesn't mean you can't fight with them again.

I am no arbitrator to decide what is or isn't a measured response to this or that. If Russian knows what he is doing - and he probably does and is happy - fine. But for all i know he is a first time player who didn't realise he had a choice.

Whats the big problem in pointing out to someone the rules?

[Persia (DoC)]

No need for a cold turkey time for me.
I already told Russia in private that I won't deport him if he (ooc) disagrees. (about 1 week ago)

And that's what I said here as well. If many players disagree with such an action I will abstain from it as well.

I do honestly believe though that it may be better for Russia to be deported then to stay where they are, under Persian domination. I think it's better for me to keep the colony for myself. (my original plan before Russia invaded me)

But let's cease this debate now, we all agree that it should not continue if many players disagree or if Russia disagrees, so let's just see if Russia agrees or not.

Byzantium, I'm very ok that you pointed out the rules. I do regret though that it didn't happen earlier, but I can see your reasons. Better do it late then do it never

[Persia (DoC)]

Persia (ooc) also wishes you all a very good Christmas!!

in character we of course spit on Christmas