New diplo game: big discussion needed

[St Jon]

I am sorry Robert, but I do not understand what a Diplo-gaming purist means.

Does it mean that we have no in-game activity at all but just write pretty stories?

Does it mean that I have Australia to my North with a Gold Mine I want and Bulgaria with a Copper Mine to my South that I have no need of that I should stop and think - Australia is a poor player and I will defeat him easily so I must not be unfair? Do I attack Bulgaria because they will give me a tough fight that I may lose over something I don't want?

This is utter rubbish! If it is a Diplo-Game, or any Game, Australia should have made an agreement with Bulgaria to stop me and if they didn't then they deserve to lose their Gold Mine. How else am I supposed to get that Gold in Raz's 'Purist' view?

Diplomacy is all about getting friends who will help you and you accept that the price you will pay is that you will offer a deal in return. If Bulgaria has no reason to attack me to defend Australia then why should they? Put doubts in their mind about me, offer them free Gold for a century or suggest a later attack on my Silver Mine - That is DIPLOMACY!

In terms of In-Game winners it does then come back to 'How the Hell do you End the Thing'? Do you just run a Game to full-term and call it quits after 9 months? Do you just wait until everyone becomes so bored of reading the latest misdeeds of the Sung Dynasty or how Augustus is a phony and that he is really sleeping with Incitatus as well as his mother and all his sisters that they slit their wrists?

I really do want to know the answer to this so please explain as I am baffled.

[St Jon]

St.Jon: BtP failed on the last count as No.3 and No.4 ganging up on a distant No.5 should have been stopped in its' tracks.

Which war was that?

The Rome/Greece v Maya War should have been outlawed as it was grossly unfair and left a lesser power with no chance at all. Even the supposed 'generous' Peace Treaty left Maya with a third of its' original land gone plus your gain of Korea. Effectively, if you are permitted to go that far in a Diplo-Game then you must allow annihilation. Pinchak may have thrown his toys out of the pram over it but I reckon I would have felt much the same.

[Black Knight 427]

Just out of curiosity who is playing?

[Robert]

The Rome/Greece v Maya War should have been outlawed as it was grossly unfair and left a lesser power with no chance at all.

For the record, the Maya attacked Greece, not the other way around. I made a counter attack. And I did not coordinate with Rome, though we knew of each other that we were going to attack.

It was Maya's way of playing: making enemies with eveybody.
In the end I never took more from Maya then Korea, I did not touch their homeland.
I was done with the war about when Rome started it.

[Robert]

@BlackKnight: nobody, I have quited the pitboss server. (made a last save though)

[St Jon]

@Black Knight 427
If you are back you need to reclaim your civ in Evald's Game as you have been kicked to AI. If not able to play then best get a sub as the AI is likely to really mess up your start.

[Rasputin]

@Raz. I really do not understand you at all here. If you are to reward story-telling then where do your stories come from? You cannot write endless tales of the glories of your newest Aquaduct. If you are to reward Diplomacy then you have to have plots and plans against somebody. Why do you have a Military category at all if you are never going to go to War?

I am sorry Raz, but you cannot have a pacifist game of civ. You can put limits on the impacts of War, you can, hopefully, avoid people being wiped out and hideously one-sided conflicts but that is about all. BtP failed on the last count as No.3 and No.4 ganging up on a distant No.5 should have been stopped in its' tracks. A good trick to pull in 'Kill or Be Killed' but outrageous in a supposedly 'different' type of Game.

I am sorry if you tihnk i am after a pacifist game i am not . i am after the bigger players stopping the other bigger players. It is the bigger players that prefer a pacifist game not me. Read Tonis explanatiosn of why he didnt attack rome early in game.

So whilst i do concur with most that my thoguht process is quite different on that one item i do disagree, i am no pacifist.

Also i never did see DIPLO as a COPY of real world. which is what others think it does. I saw diplo not as a DIPLOMACY game. but a new thing.

I am aware i was wrong in thinking that.

I thought the eventual winner in game was irrelevant but so many play to win in game, it doesnt make it wrong , it is just not why i joined diplo

I thoguht that despite my lack of ability others would keep the game interesting in their wars with each other, but it appears if i want interest my weak and pooor nations would need to fight the fights.

It is ok , i see now that we just are not after the same outcome.

I was after a game of civ that was played in a differnet way than other s do.


I wish u all the best

[Robert]

There have been very interesting wars on our continent during the entire game. that a few civs are the biggest in the end is not a problem. They just won the wars. And Toni did an awesome job diplomaticly to stay out of these wars. Not to mention of course the very long war he started against the Khmer.

[Toni]

I think that the best planned and executed attack/war was when Greece/Robert brought his galleys from Greece to Rome. That took some planning and very long long time to reach the Roman shores. Still i appreciate the attempt by Robert.

Also he repeated the same deed, in his latest war against Portugal, the only difference was instead of a skirmish force he brought a monsterous army.

Well Done Robert - you have mastered fully the skills of war planning and execution.

[Toni]

Guys when are we planning to start serious talks about the new game?

*Players
*Rules
*Map maker
*Start Date

I guess these questions should be descussed soon.

[Robert]

I'll start a thread this week.
I'll include concept rules to give us a flying start.

I also intend to create an application for voting.

[Toni]

Robert

[Black Knight 427]

@Black Knight 427
If you are back you need to reclaim your civ in Evald's Game as you have been kicked to AI. If not able to play then best get a sub as the AI is likely to really mess up your start.

I'm not back but home yet, but I am able to post here using my cell phone and I know my civ is on AI and as I said in the thread that is fine with me since I'll be back home on monday.

[bamf226]

I'm interested in another game, but whether or not I join depends on the expectations in terms of posts. I am not skilled enough to win in-game and do not have enough time (or want to put forth the effort) to develop a detailed history.

Considering that a lot of diplomacy happens behind closed doors, the voting aspect doesn't work very well either. Voting on military and storytelling is easy enough to do, but diplomacy, the focus of the game, is very hard to vote on.

In most cases you are conducting diplomacy with a few select individuals therefore the number of votes received for diplomacy are small. Since diplomacy is the main aspect of the game and votes are sparse, perhaps votes for diplomacy should be weighted differently, such as 50% of the overall score.
I think that gives everyone a fair chance at winning because diplomacy is so crucial to the game.

[Pinchak]

Effectively, if you are permitted to go that far in a Diplo-Game then you must allow annihilation.

Oh St. Jon my friend, you have alot to learn about this genre. Annihilation (or near annihilation) and capital taking IS allowed. It has happened to me on more then one occasion.

Pinchak may have thrown his toys out of the pram over it but I reckon I would have felt much the same.

Not sure what a pram is, but the major issue which caused me to jump ship was the application of the rules, not getting my a$$ handed to me. Some perceive this as troublemaking. I prefer to call it integrity.

For the record, the Maya attacked Greece, not the other way around. I made a counter attack.

For the record, I helped last place and land starved Korea try to get a little land off the sprawling Greek empire. When the effort failed, a peace deal was made, and subsequently broken prematurely by Greece. A counter attack with no honor.

It was Maya's way of playing: making enemies with eveybody.

I made enemies with arguably the three strongest civs in the game. That is hardly everyone. It should also be noted that a common complaint in diplo is nobody having the balls to challenge the top civs thus they remain the top civs.

Korea, Khmer, Persia, and much of Medulla I considered allies. I was even allies with Greece until they started ordering around Korea and Maya. It is true that I started wars with Portugal (tried to stop his early takeover of New Portugal with caravels), Rome (in defense of weaker Russia), and Greece (on behalf of last place Korea). All of these attacks were against stronger civs, and for honorable reasons. Maybe next time I'll just stick to the tried and true beat up on weaker neighbors methodology.



PS: Did this game end? If so, I would like to hear some feedback about the map, considering the time I put into it, and the many early game opinions.

EDIT: I went back and read the last several pages of threads associated with this game. Some commented on the map and your praises and criticisms were appreciated.