Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Organization Thread IV]

[Pitboss Maya]

As I have said before, I believe this to be a case of Tony's PC doing one thing and the server not noticing and thus doing another (basically an Out-of-Sync (OOS) error of sorts). In other words, Tony declared war, and played his turn, but it didn't register on the server properly. So when he later logs in to check, the server has noticed the declaration of war, but also has some conflicting records of peace timed after the time of war, and thus chooses the most recent state it has. This could then result in a declaration of peace, and thus the units are moved automatically when the borders (which were opened by the war) are automatically closed.

You know the funny thing about coincidents? They are hardly ever conincidents.

What are the chances that at this most critical point in the game, all of a sudden, for the first time in the game, a glitch happens, that effects nothing but the one thing that would allow Greece to recover from the surprise of Koreas attack? Of the finite types of game errors that could occur, this is the one that happens? To this player? At this exact time???

Use your brains people... jeez.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy the "glitch" theory at all. I hate to accuse anyone of anything underhanded... but when you look at the big picture there is really only one conclusion that makes sense.

I hope i am wrong, but i don't think so.

[Pitboss Khmer]

Regadless we need a reload so can Cyber please say something as host?

[Pitboss Greece]

Yes, you declared war on me, but then you offered a cease fire immediately. I also have a screenshot of that. (I make a lot of screenshots).

I accepted it.
I was under the assumption that you expected Portugal to auto-declare war on you, but when you realised Portugal did not, you offered me a cease fire immediately.

That is also why in my story thread my general went to Korea after you declared war and asked to stop this. I assumed that you would pick it up and we could work things out.

I have not cheated in any way.
I have just accepted the cease fire you proposed to me.

Here's the screenshot:



I have accepted a cease fire offer you proposed.
If this cease fire was not really proposed by you, but by someone else who hacked into your account, then we have a huge cheating problem.

But it was not me.
So the question to Korea is: did or did you not send me the offer of the screenshot above?

Somebody has some explaining to do!

I DEMAND THIS GAME GET RELOADED TO 1635 AD RIGHT NOW!

I declared war on Greece, and moved units into their territory in 1635. I did so before Greece moved. Then I log in a bit early to see what has happened with Greece's move and to plan out my next move and lo and behold there is a peace treaty that I DID NOT SIGN between Korea and Greece. In fact the game started with the diplomacy prompt up, and Greece offering me Open Borders. There was no cease fire or peace treaty on it, so I was like "What the hell?" then I exit the diplomacy prompt and there is no state of war with us. So I look at the territory that I sent my army into and it is turned around in the other direction. So somebody signed a peace treaty between us that I did not send to him.

I am not going to make any accusations, but I think you all know what I am implying. I don't want to hear any bull**** excuses, I just want the game reloaded to 1635 so I can move before Greece can move. I want everything back like it was with no funny business and this whole situation ends now. This makes absolutely no sense, and I want an explanation from "Greece" as to how this happened right now! I have screen shots of the event log showing that I closed borders with them and declared war in 1635, and also that somehow peace was made in that same year. The funny thing is I ended my turn and then Greece played. So for any of this to make sense I would have had to declare war on Greece, then right after that offer them peace so they can accept it when they logged in and played. And of course all of this would have happened BEFORE I got on Apolyton and made three hours worth of posts about gonig to war with Greece and then another day of Greece posting about how I declared war on them. This makes absolutely no sense. I demand answers right now. Screen shots will be forthcoming as soon as I put them on image shack.

BTW; people should play they turns in the same order on the reload. Therefore I should be able to move BEFORE Greece does. Again, no funny business or the **** is really going to hit the fan.

- Capo.

[Pitboss Khmer]

Wow, maybe it's Whiplash! Or Raz!!

[Pitboss Greece]

Ok, first I'll reveal my identity.
I am indeed CyberShy, the game host.
I'd rather have kept it a secret, but I understand that Korea wants this to be clear since things are apparently very wrong.

Further do Insist that I did not cheat. I have not logged in to Korea's account and force a peace deal.

I have always tried to be a very honest game-host.
Even when I was subbing for Russia, I consulted Toni for deals I made between Russia and Sparta.

I can't say that I have always done the perfect fair thing as a sub or a host, I'm only a human being, but I do not cheat. And in this case did I not cheat.
We must find out if either someone else logged in as Korea and offered me a cease fire, or Capo made a mistake myself, or there's a bug in the game.

I think we can rule out the last option.
It's not a game bug. Especially not since It's not only a peace deal that's being offered but it also came with a text:

"I don't know what is going on now. Russia send me a PM, are we still going to attack Maya?
I offere this tade so you ee this. I won't be home tonight so PLEASE PM me ASAP!!!!"

This player apparently knows about Russian PM's.
The Capo: who knows except you and Russia about Russian PM's?
Did you really not write that text yourself? Did you really not offer a cease fire yourself?

I keep this game running till The Capo has declared clearly that the message / cease fire approval above is not from him. (which I don't believe, btw)
I'm glad that I make screenshots of in-game messages I receive that I have to deal with through PM later. (just to memorize the text for myself, the English had sent me such a msg as well, seconds before, which I have also made a screenshot of, also a msg about which I had to answer them. but the english came online a couple of minutes later, and we chatted in-game. England can confirm)

Anyway, if The Capo says that he did indeed not send that message and cease fire proposal, then we have a cheater, and I'll pause the game and we'll look till we found him.

[Pitboss Greece]

Korea: who knows you password?
nobody can login to your game without knowing your password! I can't even do that as a host.

I could kick you, but the civstats log would show that.
And I could turn off civstats, but that would also show on civstas.
Not to mention that your password must have changed after I had kicked you. Can you confirm that your password has not changed.
Only possibility: you have no password. Then everybody can join like you.

Maya: you can change your password by 'retiring' from the game (your civ then becomes AI) and then claim your civ again. You can then set a new password.

I'm going to check no if Korea has a password. (I won't load the game, just only seeing if I can pick Korea)

EDIT: No, it's impossible to pick Korea without a password.

[Pitboss Greece]

Last thing:

If you really were about to invade me like this, it's the MOST LAME and form of back-stabbing ever done by anybody in diplo history.

- It is out of the blue! From good friends to enemies in 1 turn
- First beg for armies, which I give after you asked for the 3rd time, then attack me with the same armies
- Ask me to upgrade your units, the attack me with those units
- First allow my Great Engineer to walk through your empire, even make roads for him, only to kill it out of the blue later when you tricked it into your borders
- Ask me in PM to send over a 'greek general' for story purposes. Later to reveal that you want to use this general to validate your 'use greek troops against Sparta' turn
- deliberately sabotage peace deals between Maya/Korea/Sparta only to push Sparta in 'ending' all these negotiations, using it as a tool to invade Sparta out of the blue. (ie: avoid all kinds of Korean-story lead up to the war, but push Sparta into the 'cause' of the war, which is BS as well, since I only stopped negotiations between Sparta/Korea/Maya, which started to help the Koreans against the Mayans anyway. Sparta never ended any other deal it had with Korea.

Anyway, it obviously holds some brilliance as well, how you used me as a toy.
I'm going to give you 3 story and 3 diplo votes for that. But it's also very very lame.

My defence army was already gone from the korean border because I believed we could secure it with the Korea/Sparta/Maya pact.
And now it is without defences, you use my own 5 riflemen and 3 upgrade cannons, to invade me.

Well, I can handle it in game. You make no chance against Sparta.
I can bring back my armies, upgrade them to machine gunners, and ruin you.
And I really will not hold back if you push this trough. You gave me the perfect reason to capture half of Korea, if not only because it's the worst form of back stabbing ever.

I thought that you had realised this all, and therefore offered me a cease fire.
That's why I played long in my story posts, picked up your story about the greek general, sent it to you so you could also flesh out the cease fire in-story.

[Pitboss Greece]

Just realising, if I would really have done this (this supposed cheat) I would be the worst cheater in the world. Only a complete a total ****** would believe that he could come away with such a cheat. It'd be the most pathetic attempt to cheat ever.

[Pitboss Portugal]

That is what i call drama

Now knowing who stands behind the Greek Civilization - there is NO way that CyberShy has cheated. I personally think that all of us 17 players will cheat before the 18 player CyberShy cheats.

Reload the turn so we can continue playing please - this is very interesting. Also lets find the real cheat and beat the heck out of him!!! (I will personally do it)

P.S LAME or not Capo did a very cunning thing. I salute you Capo and will give you votes for your Diplomacy. using someones armies against him LOL haha oh my. cunning 10X

(Xristo takes a mental note "Never give units to Korea")

[OzzyKP]

Honestly my best guess is that Capo accidentally hit some prompt without realizing it. I still think the game should be reloaded though.

Totally called it btw.

My guess is that Capo was attempting a double-double-cross and intended to trade maps with Greece, not realizing that you can't trade maps while at war without also offering a cease fire.

[Pitboss Rome]

Paranoia seems to be a dominant element in this, and I guess all, diplo games. As a newbie it was interesting to learn (1) how paranoid I could get, particularly with some folks deliberatrely winding me up and (2) how easily you can wind other people up. All IC and good tactics.

Its sad though when it spills over from IC to OCC.

As far as I can see CivStats is clear. Nobody logged in as Korea between the Korean players turn at the beginning and the short log in at the end. Therefore the cease-fire must have been offered during the Korean players turn after they declared war. It was then accepted by Greece when they logged infor their turn. This makes sense to me because I have PM from Greece just after their turn in which they express confusion (among other things) as to what Korea is up to invading then offering peace immediately.

So something happened during Korea's turn which wasn't intended, or they now regret. I think that Ozzy's suggestion has a lot going for it: "My guess is that Capo was attempting a double-double-cross and intended to trade maps with Greece, not realizing that you can't trade maps while at war without also offering a cease fire". A further possibility here would be if early in the turn I offer a map trade, and then later I declare war, does the map trade still get offered to the other player when they next log in? If so, does the computer automatically adjust it to map trade plus cease-fire since you can't do the map trade without the cease-fire?

Suggestions of deliberate manipulation on a huge scale (stopping civstats, logging in an opponent etc.) by Cyber who I have always found straight-forward and honest OCC really is paranoia as far as I can see. Particulcarly since this fraud would never have succeeded.

Lets keep the paranoia in character, and be pleasant and honest OCC.

Personally I am hestitant about a reload since I am not sure what the actual reason is, other than someone wanting one very loudly. Or at least we need to be very clear why a reload happens. Remember how annoyed Russia was when Piercia immediately forced peace with Rome? There was no option for a reload for the Rus.

[Pitboss Russia]

I cannot believe CS to be a cheat, BTW Cyber even I guessed who Orestes really was pretty quick, and cannot in truth see how anyone could have profited from such foul play. We are talking of a conflict distant from anyone and an unbelievably one sided one at that! The only result would have been Korean oblivion - and unless Greece is vastly more forgiving than I ever would be - probably still will.

I am however deeply disenchanted at both parties for bringing the IN GAME issue of Russian PM's OOG! This cannot but severely hamper me in seeking to gain trust and aid from more powerful neighbours. What makes it worse is that these PM's are entirely ficticious. Where Capo got this ludicrous idea of me joining him in an attack on a massively larger and more powerful neighbour I do not know for the only PM I sent him was a reply advising of the hopelessness of just such a plan and that there would be no aid from me. I am at least glad that I did act as I did on that particular issue and thus might hope to retain some credibility with the Maya.

[Robert]

@Russia: I'm sorry for not removing that msg from the screenshot, but I needed the msg as well to proof that I really got a cease fire proposal from Korea.

Not to mention that the entire idea of Russia invading the Maya was only happening in The Capo's head (Who would not want to know what really happens in his head? It's unbelievable! ).
That's why I thought that I could post it, because it only reflected The Capo's paranoia

Now this is about the 4th time this game I have been accused of cheating, I hope that we have finally settled that CyberShy doesn't cheat. (so that I can finally start cheating )

Oh, and I agree with Rome. If this is a human error, (as I suspect) then we should not reload. We have never done that. And to be honest, it serves Korea best if this war does not continue (eventhough he lives in the fairy world where he would. I have about 9 units on a 5 road-tiles distance from Knossos. If I go totally money and borrow some money from friends I can upgrade about 7 units to machinegunners againts wich his army immediately stands no chance. My Frigates would destroy his sea faring economy. And from then on I only have to produce riflemen and machinegunners and fight against his musketeers. This would be the most uneven fight in diplogame history. And it would be fair for me to hit Korea hard because A. he started he war and B. he backstabbed me deeper then even Brutus stabbed his stephfather Julius.

Just sharing that

[Pitboss Maya]

Interesting turn of events.

First I will say, that if these recent updates are true, and you did not cheat Cyber, then my sincere apologies for leaning in that direction. However, I don't consider this matter closed until Korea can respond.

I will also say this for the record, I do not put cheating past you Cyber, and as far as I can tell you cheated with the map.

You were not suppose to look at it when I transferred it to you in order to start the game. You however took it upon yourself to not only open it, but also CHANGE things.

Now that I can see Greece for the first time since making the map, there are some interesting additions I didn't put there. Most notably, gems next to Sparta. I know I didn't put them there because I followed strict protocols regarding where certain resources showed up (silver was only in the far north and far south, gems were only in or next to jungles, etc...). Also, every civ only got starting access to one forge metal, you have two.

I also noted that you nerfed some of my starting resourses, dispite the fact that I did the map creation in such a way that I could not set myself up. Basicly, as far as i can tell, you just assumed that I would cheat (even though I couldn't by virtue of how i did it) and decided to nerf me a bit. Then you took it upon yourself to spruce up your starting land a bit. After all, who is going to call you out on it months later.

So bottom line here is... despite your following as the most honest man at Apolyton, I hold a different view.

NOW... the matter at hand....

I happen to know that several players contacted Korea after login in and seeing that they declared war on Greece, asking him if he was insane. Rome was one of these players. Interesting to note however that according to civstats, Rome logged in AFTER Greeces last login for the turn. This means that if Greece accepted the "accidental peace treaty", this war would not have showed up when Rome logged in. Very fishy.

Also...

Only a complete a total ****** would believe that he could come away with such a cheat. It'd be the most pathetic attempt to cheat ever.

Oh, and I agree with Rome. If this is a human error, (as I suspect) then we should not reload.

So... lets just assume for sake of argument that a cheat DID occur. Would this really be the most pathetic attempt to cheat ever? Currently, we are discussing not doing anything about it without even hearing from Korea if this was an accident or not. Perhaps the most clever cheat ever?

Also...

That screenshot holds no weight as far as I am concerned. Why would someone take a screenshot of this? Wouldn't the ingame events verify this, as they have? I don't know... again, fishy. When I see a video of something really amazing (like bigfoot walking around, or a UFO, or some other possibly faked image/video) I always ask myself... "why would someone have a camera at this very moment? Alot of fakes can be revealed as just that simply by asking this simple question. I find it quite odd that a screenshot was taken of this, I just don't see the purpose... unless the person taking the screenshot KNEW this event would be called into question. Fishy.

As a final note, it is odd that I am defending Korea considering his plans to destroy me! But at the same time I refuse to jump on the "Cyber is too honest a player to do something like this, so it must be a mistake" bandwagon.

[MMC]

Is it possible that the original Korean player still knows the password? Particularly if Tony doesn't know how to change it.