Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Organization Thread IV]

[Pitboss Rome]

Doing anything else would be wholly unfair becuase it would ruin all of my strategy.

Its not all about you! There are other people affected here. 17 of us remember. Or is you having the chance to work out your perfect strategy more important than the rest of us? We have already had two reloads over this (yes two - look at civ stats if you don't believe me - I lost turns in both of them). If you chose not to play, why should the other 16 of us suffer?

[Pitboss Maya]

I think a reload back to 1640 is a VERY generous comprise from Capo. He probably didn't play his turn because to do so would be one more step toward no reload at all.

The reality is, this should be reloaded back to 1630.

[Pitboss Maya]

Also kudo's to him for not pulling a disputed double move at the start of this turn.

I didn't want to cause more waves, but trust me I was tempted since I would have been within my rights.

Considering there is probably going to be a reload... I would rewrite that rule. (hint, hint...)

[Robert]

you still have to explain to me where the rule right now states that both turns have to be during war time to be illegal.

[Pitboss Maya]

you still have to explain to me where the rule right now states that both turns have to be during war time to be illegal.

You can't be that dumb, so im going to assume something is being lost in the translation.

Civilizations that are at war have to wait 6 hours after the new turn started after their last move. When all opponents have moved before those 6 hours have passed the player can move as again well.

Nowhere in this rule does it state that this is retroactive to the turn prior to war.

I don't know why you are having such a hard time wrapping your head around this very simple concept. The bottom line is the rule as written above allows for this exploit.

Again, I totally agree that it makes sense to prevent this sort of double move, but this rule does not address that. Indeed this was discussed when creating the rule... but never made it's way into the final rule YOU wrote.

I find it extremely ironic that you are now arguing this.

Fix the rule, reload to 1640, and lets move on.

[Pitboss Portugal]

Guys lets just reload, we are wasting time here. I am getting bored of replaying turns.

[Robert]

There is not going to be a reload anyway.
Either I keep the GE or Korea can kill the GE (you can't capture GE's)

That The Capo was foolish enough to put another pressure on the group not play his turn is his fault. I have on purpose not used my GE this turn to wait for the outcoming of Ozzy's arbitrage. I've done that to take away the need for a reboot if the arbiters will say that I'm wrong.

I'm not going to reload anyway. We have dealt with earlier double moves as well without reloading. period. THe only reload we did was for bugs
1. the bug when portugal was first to liberalism but got no tech
2. the bug when Korea offered a cease fire to Sparta while it was only a map-trade offered before the war started.

Besides that we have NEVER reloaded.
Korea was stupid to stop doing his turns.
We are not going to reload for that.
Not to mention that I have said yesterday already somewhere that I could always return the GE.

[OzzyKP]

Ok, two of the judges have responded. They both agree (independently). I'll be back in an hour or so, if I don't receive the third judge's comments by then I'll just post the two.

DON'T RELOAD.

[Robert]

Nowhere in this rule does it state that this is retroactive to the turn prior to war.

I don't know why you are having such a hard time wrapping your head around this very simple concept. The bottom line is the rule as written above allows for this exploit.

Again, I totally agree that it makes sense to prevent this sort of double move, but this rule does not address that. Indeed this was discussed when creating the rule... but never made it's way into the final rule YOU wrote.

I find it extremely ironic that you are now arguing this.

Fix the rule, reload to 1640, and lets move on.

Yes, it's poorly formulated, that's clear.
But it doesn't say that the "wait for 6 hours after the new turn started" does not apply to the turn in which war was declared.
Especially since we made a big deal about it that the spirit of the rule was more important the letter: don't use exploits to gain advantage.

Let me be clear: I have never said that The Capo cheated! I am sure that he tried move on the edge though. But I never claimed that his double move was a cheat!

It's just that an exploit happened which disadvantaged me in a HUGE way in a situation where I already got some BIG disadvantages that were also on the edge. We could easily undo this exploit by just letting me move first next turn to save my GE.
Then go ahead and sink my ships. That's life.

But it didn't have to be that difficult.
The Capo just wants it all
1. he wants to be allowed to borrow troops and immediately use them against the loaner
2. he wants to borrow frigates to help us ally to reach the loaner's coast without being attacked by the loaners frigate (because he loaned it to the later enemy)
3. and he wants to exploit a double move to even get my GE

Now we can add #4 to the list
4. he wants a reload because he was that stubborn to not play his turn while it was not needed at all to reload.

I have been very flexible and gave up #1 and #2 pretty early on! (it took me some time, but I did let it go)
Then I made aproblem of #3 because it was agianst the rules.
Now I have even promised to let that go to if Ozzy's judges say that I'm wrong.

But let me be clear that #4 is not going to happen. This game will not be reloaded.
And I hope that The CApo will be mature enough to accept the judgement of the judges as well if it's against him.

I wonder if The Capo has ever made a compromis.

I am sorry for this dispute. I am sorry that in games there are sometimes disagreements. I'd rather have no fights either.
But I have tried to be reasonable (giving up #1 and #2 fairly early)

I hope that nobody blames me for standing up for my rights for 24 hours because I believe that there has been cheated on me during an already very very difficult situation for me. But even there I stayed reasonable (keeping the GE in the spot where it could be returned to Korea)

Now we wait for the judgemen of the judges.
In the meanwhile the game continues.

[Pitboss Maya]

As a participant in this war, I cannot afford for you to get a free move out of this. What ever happened to "I have machineguns, you two are dead if you invade me?"

Capo was within his rights to not play that turn understanding a reload was in order. The game should have been paused anyway until this was resolved. It is only a reload to the last turn. The only reason I can see you not wanting to do it is that you want that extra turn advantage.

Your a f*$&#ing cheater Cyber. I hope that is apparent to everyone. Your whole argument in red above is pretty much that since you accepted some parts, you don't need to accept everything.

YOU NEED TO ACCEPT WHAT IS FAIR ACCORDING TO THE RULES WE ESTABLISHED (or in some cases, didn't establish).

I don't give a $hit about the "spirit" of a rule. That is the most subjective load of crap i have ever heard.

If this is not reloaded, I'm done with this game. I'm not dealing with a cheater who has control over when the rules apply and when they don't.

I called ALL of this in the beginning of the game with my "noobs/vets guide" which was censored despite simply being my opinion. An opinion which is now playing out almost exactly as I wrote about.

[Pitboss Greece]

As a participant in this war, I cannot afford for you to get a free move out of this. What ever happened to "I have machineguns, you two are dead if you invade me?"

That was before you guys loaned my defence army.
And it was not 'you two' but only The Capo. I never knew about a 'you two' because I was under the impression that 'you two' were enemies and I jumped in to help Korea. Remember.
Can you really not try to see things from my point of view? My situation?

The only reason I can see you not wanting to do it is that you want that extra turn advantage.

No, I do not fear Korea.
I only fear you. And you have moved.
I have no advantage for a reload.

I am even willing to pause my entire defence 1 turn down there at the Korean border to give Korea time to catch up.

It's just that we can't put another reload on the other players AND The Capo should learn to make some compromises. He can't have everything his way. And the double move is the most obvious thing.

Your a f*$&#ing cheater Cyber. I hope that is apparent to everyone.

No, I have not cheated.
And I am not pushing everything into my direction I have even given things up and tried my best to keep the game running by keeping everything open so that a reload is not needed.

Now even you put a burden on this game by treating to leave if "things don't go the way you want".

[Robert]

just for the record, even the Maya say that this is an exploit:

The bottom line is the rule as written above allows for this exploit.

link: http://apolyton.net/forums/showpost....&postcount=530

[Pitboss Maya]

I want fairness.

Can you really not try to see things from my point of view? My situation?

You should have seen this comming. You can't order around a civ almost your strength and expect much less. You can't screw a small civ out of land on multiple occasions and not expect them to wait for the day when they can have their revenge.

It's just that we can't put another reload on the other players

I think this is what you were counting in the whole time. You have manipulated this entire situation to gain various advantages.

From your OWN rules... AGAIN...

If any civilization violetes these rules the game will be paused and the concequences will be decided.

I demand to know what the game was not paused? Or was this also not in the "spirit" of what you ment by the above? Had the game been paused, a reload would not be nessasary. Instead you just let in keep going, knowing full well that people would get sick of this debate and decide to just let things slide.

I refuse to play with a loaded deck. That is why I am considering leaving, not because "things didn't go my way". Things didn't go the way they should have, according to (again) RULES YOU WROTE.

[Pitboss Maya]

Maya say that this is an exploit:

Yes, it is an exploit... that is addressed with the placement of a rule.

You, as the administrator of this game did not address it with a correct rule, dispite myself and others bringing the issue up, so it is allowed.

[Pitboss Portugal]

Guys lets please calm down and relax. It hurts me after 7-8 months of playing for us to start such an ugly fight. We the 18 have all stayed the course, lets keep it civilized.

My advice to the 3 players CS, Maya and Capo is to take one deep breath and reload the 1640.

Big deal, its just a damn stupid game.

Please i hate seeing how ugly this is becoming.

Peace and Love