Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Tech Trade Thread]

[Pitboss Vikings]

As i said mate , i went back and re read the whole 2 threads on the game setup and NO VOTE was ever taken on the Tech Voucher system.

It was agreed to at same time as no Double move. In fact most people during the discusiion stated the DOUBLE MOVE was the only issue with PITBOSS games and was a CHEAT.

For normal CIV MP games the Black and white rules are fine and work well as everyone has the same intention winning. The reason DIPLO style tries to avoid rules and allow the community to decide what is right or wrong is to prevent lawyers being involed if you know what i mean, where the law is argued to death by technicalties, perhaps a word or two not stated correctly etc etc. Community Rule overcomes this problem but hasnt been allowed to be used in present game.

I will reiterate my point above though, I will not have any TRADES to make so i wont be breaking any rules by not posting. I am already well behind tech wise and city count wise. still enjoying playing my little role, i dont need to be the winner of CIV MP to enjoy.

If all 18 CIvs played the samw way it would be better, at present only 5-6 are getting into the passion of it being a DIPLO game.

I would request that Cyber cut and paste all the above posts into the now closed Argument thread. I have made my point regarding the double standards used.

Go ahead post away your tech trades.

[Pinchak]

I will reiterate my point above though, I will not have any TRADES to make so i wont be breaking any rules by not posting. I am already well behind tech wise and city count wise. still enjoying playing my little role, i dont need to be the winner of CIV MP to enjoy.

So if I understand you correctly you are going to attempt to be backward in modern times? Sort of like the Amish?

That could be pretty cool actually.

Really though, I don't believe for a second that you are going to go the whole game without trading tech. Unless your goal really is to establish a nation modeled around the Medevil Times Restaurant theme.

[Robert]

chill the personall attacks.

Let's wait for what the others say about this isssue.

[Pitboss Vikings]

you misread what i posted. I would love to see someone give me some modern techs, but i realise that as this is being played as mostly a normla Civ MP game people will only trade not give.

Unless i have something they need i wont get anything in return.

At present i still have not got a lot of techs many others have, and the civs my size are al lresearching similar techs.

So basically what will happen is the bigger civs will trade amongst themselves and the smaller civs will fall faller behind. that ok, it just not normal in DIPLO games. only normal for Civ MP games.

[The Capo]

Jeez, I thought I was annoying.

First of all, Cyber is right; there is no need for any personal attacks here.

As far as this argument, it seems to be driving at a bigger issue. I think Ras' point is that he doesn't care much for the rules because the community should handle them when they occur, on this point I do agree. BUT if rules ARE made ahead of time they SHOULD be followed. He is upset because he sees these rules (and correct me if I am wrong at all Ras please) as a tool used by the better players, not necessarily to keep the not-so-good players down, but to prevent other better players from overcoming them.

Basically I think he is sort of on to something, I don't think its a planned out conspiracy (a la the Maya's guide to Diplogamers), but I think its a reality that occurs when you have four big names vying for ultimate power. They have to trade with eachother and they usually form two camps to ensure the other two don't come up. The don't want minor civs to rise up either not necessarily because they fear them, but because they don't want them trading with their enemies. So it naturally occurs. The tech cap is partially to prevent a strong civ from getting stronger by gaining a bunch of minions but it is REALLY there to prevent everyone from getting ahead of the times in technology. Otherwise stated; we don't want to develop too quickly.

We tried to stop it by only allowing trades of techs you created (aka no tech brokering), but this just made it so that the minor civs stayed that way. So then we tried a cap, but now the cap has problems. Personally I am against any extra rules and think you should be able to trade whatever techs you want/have. But I am one of those civs that normally sucks (just like you ras), so I am being a little biased in that.

So, its a tough issue to debate. It doesn't need to get personal because that's been done to death, and believe me, we've had this issue for YEARS, and personal attacks were used in all of those years and so far no unanimous result has, well, been the result.

Which makes me think.... check for a new thread!!! Yay!!!

[Pitboss Vikings]

With a no tech brokering in palce, it basically leaves the smaller civs and not so good players at a huge disadvantage that DIPLO gaming was supposed to have resolved. that is it doenst matter what your ability you can still paly diplo.

Unlike Ozzy and a few others i see DIPLO as the amatuers game ,not the ultimate version of MP Civ , it is played for fun not prizes. That doesnt mean good players arent involved many are such as Ozzy, Toni, Deity and whoever this maya player is. Normal Civ MP is the arena for the professionals.

But unlike normal Civ MP games where the outcome is solely about winning DIPLO was about the playing. So therefore giving of techs to lower civs was occuring. These smaller civs might then on trade these techs for theri own benifit, obviously against any agreement from the gifting civ , but played out in game.

Now with a no tech brokering and a voucher system, who is going to gift a tech to small civ for nothing when he can trade with the larger ones for other techs.

[Pitboss Khmer]

gentlemans. when i first play it in 4000bc i see mesage from cyberman saying rule on 15 teck. it up on chat screen all to see. it a rule.

[Robert]

Tech brokering doesn't favour the strong or the weak civs.
If a weak civ is able to discover a tech that nobody has yet, he can sell it to everyone without being scared it's being brokered further.

I play immortal in SP and tech brokering helps me a lot.

The 15 tech trade was a rule from the beginning.
It's not that we have to vote about everything. If something is suggested and nobody or not many people speak up against it, and it is being confirmed, then it's a rule.

We're not in the USA here where we have to vote everytime on everything. Not to mention that many players never even voted on the few votes we had.

Stuff like the no double move exploit and the 15 techs brokering thing are just rules. It's in the thread and nobody spoke up against it. period.

Regarding the 4 civs teaming up, I think we have agreed as well that everybody should live up to the gentlemans agreement that the top 3-4 players will not allie together.

If an alliance from sub-top players evolves into an alliance of top players, they can decide to split their alliance up.
Though it's not a rule. It's a gentlemens agreement.

Diplogaming is more about gentlemans agreements then about solid rules. But tech trading needs rules. In SP mode it's not for nothing that man civs don't want to trade techs to you. (while it would benefit both parties).
It's a game mechanic to avoid that all civs are equally advanced. (as in earlier diplogames).

Regarding penalty points: it may not be an issue for those who don't care about winning anyway. Well, that's fine. Players who don't care about winning will not cheat, so it's no problem that a possible penalty doesn't harm them.

[Pitboss Vikings]

Originally posted by CyberShy

Stuff like the no double move exploit and the 15 techs brokering thing are just rules. It's in the thread and nobody spoke up against it. period.

But what is a rule without penalties. !! One rule broken nothing done

But i am ok for you people to post your techs here.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by CyberShy

Stuff like the no double move exploit and the 15 techs brokering thing are just rules. It's in the thread and nobody spoke up against it. period.

[ming] Case Closed [/ming]


Now can we please end all the endless arguing and whining about the many rules or non-rules in this game? It is sapping what meager enjoyment I have for this game.

Fighting over all these rules was tedious the first time around, going over it a second time is obnoxious. These are the rules, there are MANY good reasons behind them, they have been discussed to death and agreed upon, so deal with it.

Period.

[The Capo]

I don't think you can just say period and its magically over with Ozzy.

And I don't see how you can agree with Cyber's contention that simply because nobody disagreed with it makes it a rule, that isn't a very good argument at all.

But, if the majority of people are in agreement that this is a rule it should be a rule. Problem is that there isn't even a majority of people speaking their mind on the issue, what six out of 18? That's merely a third, and they can't all agree.

So I wouldn't go around getting all high and mighty over such a slim majority.

Nobody is saying anything about tech brokering though, we are talking about just a trade cap/voucher system. Each country gets fifteen, and you may trade them or whatever (take them as spoils of war) and I think, considering the game has already begun, that we should stick with that to avoid further discussion.

I don't like that people like Cybershy and Ozzy get to "decide" things though, it sets a bad precedent and that kind of behavior should stop.

[Pitboss Vikings]

i will post all my tech trades here

[The Capo]

I should probably amend/clarify what I meant earlier, because after reading my post it isn't fair to the person setting up the game either. Should we expect them to guess what other people would say? Certainly not.

But this debate has taken over this thread and has created an argument that shouldn't have taken place in this thread. As I've said its a tough balancing act. On one hand you want the game to proceed smoothly and we don't want everyone developing so quickly that it takes away from the character of the game, which was the point to limiting tech trading to begin with. Problem is, when you do that it almost ensures that lesser civs will stay that way.

The best thing to do now is to post that you've made a trade here, I don't know that it is entirely necessary you post what that tech was, but that shouldn't matter much really.

The main thing is that since it was agreed upon, and its the best solution we've come up with, and Ozzy is right when he says there has been nearly endless debate on this topic, it should stay in place.

We should discuss this in a different thread with more relaxed debate.

[Pitboss Vikings]

im relaxed now

[Pitboss Japan]

lets all just chilax and have a refreshing drink while we talk like grown me and not small childeren.