Pitboss Diplomacy Game

[LzPrst]

Start on wednesday the 21st? When Pinchak has the map ready, we've had the whole weekend to iron out the details, and we havent lost interest. That way bamf226 can queue things up for 7-8 turns without any disaster, so no problem, right?


Ok. Following details to be ironed out.
1.Normal or Epic speed. -A lot of people seem to be leaning towards Epic. Need final decision. Pref. by vote.

2. Toni needs to decide if he is going to stay with his civ. No pressure either way. Except for make up mind fast.

3. What to call the game. Really. Come on. Matters not. I say we draw lots and the winner gets to chose. To vote over this is a waste of time. Imho.

4. When to start. Asap, or wait a bit longer for things to mature, and for the fabled patch to arrive. Will the patch make any changes that affect us? Like trait nerfing or unit changes or whatever?

5. Tech limitation rules.


Let us focus on nr. 1.
Normal Speed 500 turns
or
Epic Speed 750 turns


I'm starting to lean towards epic, cause we want to get something out of the game eras, but it will take 2 years to finish. Normal might be done in right over a year. But we want to get something out of our units, so maybe Epic is just right. Though aren't normal pitboss games played on quick? I really don't know. I'll play either way.

Please vote only for Normal or Epic speed. Let's get that done with. Once we have a majority it is decided. And we need to finish up our decisions fast. So could we please have this settled by the end of friday?

[bamf226]

As long as CyberShy is ok to play during his vacation I'm ok starting the 21st.

[Robert]

Let's make some decisions. Otherwise we keep talking forever.

name: Beyond the Pit
speed: epic (some want marathon, some want normal, I think it'll be epic in the end)

To be decided:
- who hosts the game? (pinchak: experienced, CyberShy: dedicated server, mail server)

- when to start (1 day after Pinchak's ready?)

- tech trade rules (NTB, 15 trades, voucher system (someone explain)

all vote
The vote ends sunday evening my time (it's my game, remember :P)

[Heraclitus]

Good! Finally someone is doing the organising!

@Cyber:
I vote you should be the host.

Tech trade: Voucher (and no I'm not going to explain it for the billionth time, someone will just need to digg over this thread or the HOTW org threads, I've presented the idea many many many many times, and lots of people know what it is, maybe they can explain it)

Start as soon as map is done (which day of the week will this be?)

@Lz:
Most of your stuff has been rendered obsolete by CS decison
Also we already agreed not to wait for the patch since it will apparently arrive sometime around the second coming of Christ.

I think Toni should decide quick

[Robert]

since it will apparently arrive sometime around the second coming of Christ.

Which is at hand, though there won't be much civing after that anymore, so we shouldn't wait for that.

[Pinchak]

I vote you should be the host.

Well, I will make this one real easy... my second computer which I was going to host this with is now my daughters computer. Cyber, it is all you buddy.

Make sure to read the pittboss manual found in Snoopy's sig. Also make sure to employ the civstats program so people can check the turn progressions without having to log in.


I don't like any game name that includes the word "pit". Reminds me of an armpit. I say either "Epic of Man", or "Test of Time".

Toni IMO should change civs since both Ozzy and Diety followed the suggestion.

Epic speed is my vote. The game will be long yes, but isn't that sort of the point?

Tech trade rules should be 15 trades. I don't like the voucher system basicly because it is complex (no one seems to really know how it is suppose to work). To ensure that behind civs don't get screwed I would say that trading to the lowest 3 civs (based on ingame score) does not count as a trade. Maybe somehow limit this as well? There has to be a simple fix for this minor problem with tech trade caps.

ALSO.... we should iron out how we are going to deal with the double move exploit. Trust me, if we don't discuss this now it WILL become an issue down the line. I would suggest something like a cap on how many times you are allowed to "end the turn". With 18 players it is going to look mighty suspicious if the same 2 or 3 players are constantly the ones ending the turn.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Pinchak
(no one seems to really know how it is suppose to work)

Disinformation.

Anyone who has bothered to read and has played Diplo before knows how it works! It can be summarised in one fracking sentence! How in the world can something that simple be too complex?

One last time, I will try to be as clear as humanly possible:

The Voucher system works like the 10 tech rule, which gives each player a right to give 10 tech in trade. The voucher system works just like that, the only difference is that it allows players to trade their right to give 1-10 techs, depends on how may they have left, to other players. This can be a gift or part of a trade the two players engage in.

Once sentence, less clear variant:
Same as 10 tech rule, just that you have the right to trade your rights to trade tech.

Now if someone has read all the times I have explained this and the times other people have explained it and then reads this and still dosen't understand it.... then.... I'm sorry I'm afraid you have a fracking learning disablity.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Pinchak
To ensure that behind civs don't get screwed I would say that trading to the lowest 3 civs (based on ingame score) does not count as a trade. Maybe somehow limit this as well? There has to be a simple fix for this minor problem with tech trade caps.

And this would be less complex than voucher how?

PS I'm sorry I got a bit upset in my previous post.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Pinchak

ALSO.... we should iron out how we are going to deal with the double move exploit. Trust me, if we don't discuss this now it WILL become an issue down the line. I would suggest something like a cap on how many times you are allowed to "end the turn". With 18 players it is going to look mighty suspicious if the same 2 or 3 players are constantly the ones ending the turn.

That is a very good point.

[Pinchak]

Same as 10 tech rule, just that you have the right to trade your rights to trade tech.

And WHY would someone do this? To my knowledge this has not be done yet in HOTW12. Helping out a behind civ needs to be painless to the helper... otherwise it just won't happen.

So I guess to clairify my original statement.... It is not complex, but inpractical.

My suggestion of having trades to the lowest 3 players be free is a painless option for the "gifter". However, I really don't like this idea since it would constantly be boosting the lowest 3 civs, thus cycleing the 4,5,6 civs to the bottom, from which they would then be gifted back up, etc...

Any ideas anyone?

[Blackdragon921]

I have explained this and the times other people have explained it and then reads this and still dosen't understand it.... then.... I'm sorry I'm afraid you have a fracking learning disablity.


I've read itand for the most part I get the basic jist of it. what I don't like is the aditude your having twords those who don't fully understand it. if ur want to play with The Voucher system I down with that. just keep in mind not everone is a "pro" like you are so if u want to get ur was I suggest you do it in a more respectful way.

[Pinchak]

I would suggest something like a cap on how many times you are allowed to "end the turn". With 18 players it is going to look mighty suspicious if the same 2 or 3 players are constantly the ones ending the turn.

In retrospect, this would be hard to track. I say we go with a variant of the "8 hour" rule.

Eight Hour Rule: If you are the last player to play your turn (thus causing the turn to "flip") you cannot declare war or attack a unit in your "second turn" until 8 hours has elapsed from the turn "flipping".

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Blackdragon921


I've read itand for the most part I get the basic jist of it. what I don't like is the aditude your having twords those who don't fully understand it. if ur want to play with The Voucher system I down with that. just keep in mind not everone is a "pro" like you are so if u want to get ur was I suggest you do it in a more respectful way.

I wasn't refering to the new players.

If you take a look at my post you will see that I specifically said those who have played diplo (I actually meant HOTW12) and have read the any of the posts in that organisation thread.

Just to be clear I have no problem with people finding genuine falws with the system and pointing them out, I just have a problem with some people circumventing the discussion and feigning ignorance. Genuine ignorance is not something to be ashamed of but something that must be admitied so it is fixed.

I have no problem with explaining the Voucher system to any of the new players or the diplo players who have come back from "retirement".


Once again sorry if I have or will offended anoyne. I would edit it but it just seems a bit underhanded to edit the post to clairfy it . Its not fair to change something once people are already disscusing it.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Pinchak


And WHY would someone do this?

To have a better system than the 10 tech rule perhaps?

Originally posted by Pinchak
To my knowledge this has not be done yet in HOTW12.

No it hasn't. But neither has your system so this comment makes little difference. It was disscused and enjoyed majority support. The only reason why it was tought up after the game started Cybershy wanted to have 100% agreement before changing the rules mid game. Actually only one player explicity said he would prefer to keep the 10 tech rule rather than the 10 tech Votucher system.

Originally posted by Pinchak
Helping out a behind civ needs to be painless to the helper... otherwise it just won't happen.

Aren't you against charity? I seem to recall you saying you where... now if that was someone else sorry.

The Voucher system has an optional rule (that can be applied but is not nesecary for the system to work) that has players vote every X turns (this was original a session, but there are no sessions in Test of Time) to which of the bottom 4 scoring civs they should give an extra tech trade right.

Originally posted by Pinchak

My suggestion of having trades to the lowest 3 players be free is a painless option for the "gifter". However, I really don't like this idea since it would constantly be boosting the lowest 3 civs, thus cycleing the 4,5,6 civs to the bottom, from which they would then be gifted back up, etc...

I suppose this applies to the above proposal. But it dosen't if you really think about it. There is a vote involved. Meaning that each case is delibered upon by the players. This implies no automatic score cycles, similar to those you descrive.

Originally posted by Pinchak

So I guess to clairify my original statement.... It is not complex, but inpractical.

Oh, I got upset for no reason then.

Ok, I have argued it is practical. It gives technologically backward civs a valuable comodity (their tech rights!). Instead of being a welfare system of sorts, it rewards civs that are backward and have no techs to trade but good with diplomacy.


A poor civ can now strike a deal trade in 2 tech rights for a tech with anoter nation. Or it can deal to buy a tech for 1000 gold and a tech right, if the civ couldn't trade a tech right not even 5000 gold would be enough to for the richer civ to burn off one of the final tech trades.


It allso allows charity. A advanced civ can give a backward civ a technology out of the goodness of their heart and not be peanalised for doing so. As long as the poorer civ gives one of its tech trades to to the more advanced civ. This makes a limit to the total tech charity a civ can recive.


Now what if you are a poor civ player? Does this mean you are unwlecomed to diplo games? Hell no! It has never been like that, and adopting a one of the optional subrules The Vocher system, I am refering to the "vote" rule, will only push us more into the direction of a community that highly values story-related and diplomatic contributions that our great community of players provides for us and the many lurkers of poly.


This may sound harsh but if you don't play civ well, if you don't write story or diplomacy, then gosh I guss there is a reason why you are at the bottom of the score board.
Everyone is welcomed to have a good time, but a good time can be had even if you don't win. Don't expect to win if you hanve't earned it.


The reason to help backward civs is that we prevent unfairness, because it is unfairness and bad luck, that result in low score and backwardness that are the no. 2 cause of people quitting the game. (no. 1 is something called "real life" )

[bamf226]

Originally posted by Heraclitus


Disinformation.

Anyone who has bothered to read and has played Diplo before knows how it works! It can be summarised in one fracking sentence! How in the world can something that simple be too complex?

One last time, I will try to be as clear as humanly possible:

The Voucher system works like the 10 tech rule, which gives each player a right to give 10 tech in trade. The voucher system works just like that, the only difference is that it allows players to trade their right to give 1-10 techs, depends on how may they have left, to other players. This can be a gift or part of a trade the two players engage in.

Once sentence, less clear variant:
Same as 10 tech rule, just that you have the right to trade your rights to trade tech.

Now if someone has read all the times I have explained this and the times other people have explained it and then reads this and still dosen't understand it.... then.... I'm sorry I'm afraid you have a fracking learning disablity.

You forget that some of us here are new to this board and the system by which you play. I've never encountered this type of play on CivFanatics, so what you are speaking is completely foreign to me. If you can give me a link to an explanation of this, I'll gladly read over it in an attempt to learn.