Diplogame Rules and Victory Discussion

[Rasputin]

Disagree with you Frank

In every Diplo game ihave palyed i have had the smallest civs and the least advanced. the most likely to get attacked.

Each time i enjoyed myself heaps, not becasue i enjoy losing, bu tbecasue i could role play that experience. I didnt need to win to be a diplo player.

In fact if winning is what diplo is about i wont be playing as much as i thought i would.

I am useless ar civ , that is honest, everyone knows i never advanced past basic levels in civ2 , not once playing at deity.

The same is true of civ4, i enjoy the building stages not the micromanagement, not the chase of the correct techs at the correct time.

I had never head of the Settler Rush/ Tree Chopping Strategy! till i saw a debate about whether it is a cheat or not. I hav enever used an exploit or sucjh like , why , becuase it is time consuming and takes away from my fun.

I like to play diplo as it is supposed t obe how the real world is, that is, some role playing, why should we be forced to pursue certain techs just so we can get some bonus points to claim a win. That goes agaisnt the whole idea of diplo, i sohuld be able to play any role of any type of leader with any type of history , any type of research etc.

Space ships ending should not even be considered. perhaps for a true dipl oremove all victory conditions and play on forever... MMMM now that is my type of game

[OzzyKP]

To have a good point system we need to include both in game accomplishments to reward good game play, but also we need to reward uniquely diplo elements like diplomacy and storytelling.

So if you notice Raz, my system is half subjective points and half objective points. So your & Capo's style of play is definitely not left out.

But if that still doesn't interest you and all you care about is the playing of the game look at it this way. The game is almost always spoiled at the end as people try to build the spaceship and end up in a huge war and hurt feelings and a big crash. Not only does that not provide a real victory it damages the game.

Having a more balanced point system for victory will make the game richer and more enjoyable for everyone.

If you don't care about who wins, then just ignore the points and do what you always do. If other's need points & victory, then let them have it because it'll make the playing of the game more enjoyable for people like you to not have to worry about a potential Deity howitzer blitz in the last rounds of the game.

[Prussia]

Agreed with Ras.

This game is a lot of fun because it is a break from the constant and repetetive obsession for every other MP game of, "I gotta win, I gotta win, I gotta win."

Instead it makes me think, "What can I do to make this game more fun for me and everyone else?"

[Frank Johnson]

"What can I do to make this game more fun for me and everyone else?"

Don't suck at civ.

[Rasputin]

Yep i Suck at civ, so that comment wasnt needed, i have never claimed to be a grea player. civ jsut gets too boring if i have to move my citizens around and monitor everything.

But as ozzy says i can play and have fun and yet still suck at it

[Fosse]

I've read a few of your threads, and find the game concept interesting. My lack of desire to write stories has stopped me from joining (though I love playing the game the way you encourage, drawing up treaties, acting like a nation, etc), but this thread piqued my interest a bit, and I had a thought.

What about a UN Mod that made all civs eligible for the elections to Sec. general and Diplomatic winner, and then disabling all other victory conditions? No spaceships means that there are no artificial wars to prevent launches. From the way the games seem to be played out nobody will ever be able to elect themselves without other players voting for them, so diplomacy is still needed. And wars started with the purpose of giving yourself a voting supermajority will quickly ally the world's voters against you before you can finish such a campaign.

The criteria to win are thus in-game, in the form of population, and out of game, in the form of alliances, in character friendship, and out-of-character approval of conduct, stories, etc.

You might suffer some push to increase population sizes in the second half of the game, but that seems of small consequence when compared to Shuttle Launch Wars.

That's my thought. Enjoy the diplogames, and good luck in your search for a victory condition.

Regards,
Fosse

[OzzyKP]

Ok, HOTW7 is starting up, and people seem to be in favor of having a point system for victory. What do people think about my most recently posted point system?

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=4513045#post4513045

[Rasputin]

as i wont get any points i vote no !!

[MMC]

I'm happy with the system, but would like to suggest the following:

Key
* means I've suggested changing the line,
+ means I've suggested adding the line,
- means I've suggested removing the line.

Traditional victory options:
First to Launch Spaceship 15 points.
Within 10 turns after 10 points
Within 20 turns after 8 points
Within 30 turns after 6 points
Within 40 turns after 4 points
Within 50 turns after 2 points
+ Space ship component - number of players / number in player's alliance (rounded down) points
Winning diplomatic victory - 20 points
Voting for civ winning diplomatic victory - 5 points

General Acheivements:
Highest population - 6 points
Highest land area - 6 points
Most wonders - 6 points
First to circumnavigate the globe - 2 points
- Highest Civ Score - 8 points
- 2nd highest Civ Score - 7 points
- 8th highest Civ Score - 1 point
+ Last place - 1 point # Everyone gets at least one point this way. It doesn't mean much,
... # but it prevents some egos being bruised by seeing a big fat 0 on their score
+ First place - Number of players + 1

Religion:
Founding a religion - 2 points
Founder of a religion with over 25% distribution - 5 points
+ Converting the most civs to your religion - 5 points # You should get recognised it you manage to convert everyone to your religion,
# even if you didn't found it.

Technology:
First to invent liberalism - 4 points
First to invent fusion - 4 points
* First to invent rifling - 4 points # Not entirely sure Economics is necessary here, so I replaced it with Rifiling (as opposed to gunpowder)
* First to invent physics - 2 points
+ First to invent biology - 2 points # If you have one in this list, you should also have the other two, IMO
+ First to invent chemistry - 2 points
First to invent music - 4 points
First to invent alphabet - 4 points

Culture:
Having the top cultural city - 5 points
Having the 2nd most cultural city - 4 points
Having the 3rd most cultural city - 3 point
Having the highest total culture - 6 points
City with legendary culture - 6 points

I'm otherwise pretty happy with the subjective scores section.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by MMC
Traditional victory options:
First to Launch Spaceship 15 points.
Within 10 turns after 10 points
Within 20 turns after 8 points
Within 30 turns after 6 points
Within 40 turns after 4 points
Within 50 turns after 2 points
+ Space ship component - number of players / number in player's alliance (rounded down) points
Winning diplomatic victory - 20 points
Voting for civ winning diplomatic victory - 5 points

I'm not clear on this.

Originally posted by MMC
General Acheivements:
Highest population - 6 points
Highest land area - 6 points
Most wonders - 6 points
First to circumnavigate the globe - 2 points
- Highest Civ Score - 8 points
- 2nd highest Civ Score - 7 points
- 8th highest Civ Score - 1 point
+ Last place - 1 point # Everyone gets at least one point this way. It doesn't mean much,
... # but it prevents some egos being bruised by seeing a big fat 0 on their score
+ First place - Number of players + 1

Yea, sorry, that was my intention. I just listed it off based on the number of players in HOTWV. So yea, last place gets 1 point, and so on up.

Originally posted by MMC
Religion:
Founding a religion - 2 points
Founder of a religion with over 25% distribution - 5 points
+ Converting the most civs to your religion - 5 points # You should get recognised it you manage to convert everyone to your religion,
# even if you didn't found it.

That'd be difficult to say who converted whom. I'd be ok with having a reward for conversions. But how and for whom?

Originally posted by MMC
Technology:
First to invent liberalism - 4 points
First to invent fusion - 4 points
* First to invent rifling - 4 points # Not entirely sure Economics is necessary here, so I replaced it with Rifiling (as opposed to gunpowder)
* First to invent physics - 2 points
+ First to invent biology - 2 points # If you have one in this list, you should also have the other two, IMO
+ First to invent chemistry - 2 points
First to invent music - 4 points
First to invent alphabet - 4 points

My logic for including techs was to give points for tech that already had a built in motivation to invent first. Fusion, music, economics and physics give out a free great person. So people naturally beeline for them. Same with liberalism giving a free tech. Alphabet I included since it opens up tech trading. Biology, chemistry and rifling don't confer these kinds of bonuses, so players feel far less compelled to research them right away. What I hope to avoid is creating a point structure in such a way people change their game playing behavior just to win the points. I think we should avoid that. So by rewarding players for goals they have anyways, we should avoid that.

So with Warlords adding a free great general at fascism I propose adding that tech to my list. But I don't agree with chemistry, biology, and rifling.

[Robert]

Within 10 turns after 10 points
Within 20 turns after 8 points
Within 30 turns after 6 points
Within 40 turns after 4 points
Within 50 turns after 2 points

This means that we have to play after someone won the spacerace....

[LzPrst]

I agree with the system with a few exceptions.

I dont feel like playing after the space ship is launched.

Also, I think that the rewards for the techs should be reduced to 1 or 2 per first civ to research. The reason is that it already gives an ingame bonus to that civ, and usually the civ that is strongest/most advanced in the first place.

Also, as Ras has said, some players/civs may not prioritize these techs for all sorts of reasons, including RP reasons. If I dont consider Music to be important I shouldnt have to be concerned about the 4 extra points.

It is good to reward certain accomplishments, but not if they manipulate gameplay. Reducing the reward makes it more overcomeable to go by other strategies. But if it was just 1 (or 2) points then it wouldnt matter that much to someone who wasnt going for it to start with, but it would be a nice bonus for whoever gets it first anyway, as it is an important accomplishment for that civ.

Also, 6pt reward for owning the most wonders is ok, but wouldnt 1pt per wonder be better? They are massive accomplishments that should be rewarded, even if you only built 10 of them and the other guy built 11.

[Robert]

+ Converting the most civs to your religion - 5 points # You should get recognised it you manage to convert everyone to your religion

- At what point in time? Civs may switch religions.
- how do you determine who converted a civ to another religion?

in general:
- why more points for diplo victory then spaceship victory?
- I don't like the idea that those who vote for a civ to win a diplo victory wins the game
- I don't like diplo victories at all in the game. A game must deeply suck if 75% (66%?) of the players decide to vote for one civ to win.

- I miss the points for the 2 allies of a civ who win an in-game victory. Alliances should benefit the players, otherwise it's not a good idea for a smaller civ to help a bigger civ win the game.
- only techs that trigger something in the game should earn points. (as Ozzy already said)
- And how are we going to administrate this? I don't like the idea to announce that I just discovered a certain tech. Sometimes you want to keep something silent.

I agree with LzPrst on the wonder thing.
Biggest cultural cities should get more points as well.

[Frank Johnson]

I think the player should just make a case that they would have finished a spaceship, if they had only x more turns. I was this way in HOTW5, I was 5-12 turns behind due to various spy actions.

[LzPrst]

In normal game first to launch SS wins. In diplogame other accomplishments are also counted. But we dont award anything to the 2nd biggest civ, or the 2nd to research liberalism. I agree that we should reward all players who can manage to put a spaceship up, but I dont think I can be bothered to play for 50 turns after the game is essentially over. 10, sure, 20 max. but not 50.