HOTW7 Set up thread

[Rasputin]

I agree Colonel, the winning has become bigger than the game unfortunatly. We are supposed to have fun with whatever start we get

[Frank Johnson]

You guys say stuff like that, but then ignore diplo game history. In previous editions of civ, diplo games were played on premade maps, with starting positions well known, and expansion possiblilities or lack there off, were entered into with every party knowing full well what they were doing. Sure, ozzy "chose" to play the arabs once and start in the desert. But pretty much everyone else haggled and positioned and demanded a river and at least 3 specials for the capital.

Now we get a request as simple as, "don't doom a civ to an eternity in ice." and we get complaints due to lack of roleplaying options? We want the thrill of discovery that a random map gives. We also don't want the map generator determining who gets to do well, and who gets to be someone's *****.

[Rasputin]

Yes i am very aware that in the past some PEOPLE have tryed to hijack the DIPLO experience into a NORMAL game by trying to remove all the randomness of it all.

The whole purpose for creating a HOTW game as a diplo was so that w ecould role play a different vrsion of history. Some people got better starts than others, I always started in Egypt or Mideast in both games i played. Did this give the best opurtunites like China had No. does it matter in DIPLO NO NO NO.
The only time a starting choice affects the game is when people are playing to WIN and need a good stasrt to keep up with the others. If it is DIPLO people want then starting areas dont matter. It is about the ROLE play and interaction not who is winning.

I am all for you guys playing any form of game you want to get your fun, but please dont call it DIPLO or HOTW if you are changing so drastically the foundations set in the greatest of all DIPLOS HOTW2.

In my humble opinion of course.

[Frank Johnson]

Ras, the main reason why diplo games failed in the past was core players losing interest. Core players lost interests because their civilization was no longer manageable or relivant even in a diplo context. Starting a civilization in the tundra is the first key step to their lack of future relivance. Preventing that from occuring is one way to help the game proceed. If you want to repeat past mistakes, and watch the butterfly effect as 4-6 players are doomed, slowly lose interest, then stop showing up, continue your current line of arugements.

[Schtix]

Well, I don't think it's very easy to doom any Civ in any given scenario Frank, I know you've had some major mishaps with enviornment; I played in one such game with you in it. So, I think we should look at this in two ways,

1) Practicality vs. Realism
2) Equality vs. Difference

Practicality vs. Realism is quite simple; it's whether we should lean towards having an unrealistic map, where there are common resources spread throughout the entire world. Now, I mean this in the sense that you could find fair quantities of oil all over Earth, or large ammounts of gold.

Practicality is like Equality, in the the sense that both in this scenario are aiming so that there are playable reigons for all Civs and that the problems encountered by enviornment are lessened. This could fix Frank's problem, as he stated, and it could make the game overall easier.

However, Realism and Difference work for Civs to be more unique from one another. Civ 1. could have infinitely more amounts of ocean tiles with a few resources, while Civ 2. could have very few points of ocean access while being the motherlode of resources.

This often makes for unique scenarios and "diplogaming within diplogaming," i.e., not just using diplomacy and RPing first, but setting objectives for yourself and deciding what would be best for your nation.

I personally favor difference/realism. I do so because I think this would make for a more interesting game. Yes, there are some cases in which it could really be a bother for some players, but I think having a shaky start because of your beginning position can often be overcomed. This is diplogaming all-nobody's out for an early win.

[Schtix]

Originally posted by Frank Johnson
Ras, the main reason why diplo games failed in the past was core players losing interest. Core players lost interests because their civilization was no longer manageable or relivant even in a diplo context. Starting a civilization in the tundra is the first key step to their lack of future relivance. Preventing that from occuring is one way to help the game proceed. If you want to repeat past mistakes, and watch the butterfly effect as 4-6 players are doomed, slowly lose interest, then stop showing up, continue your current line of arugements.

Frank, I honestly think you're making a very large deal out of tundra. The maps that have been shown have had overall good positions for just about all Civs. I think we should go ahead with a temperate map. If one Civ is surrounded with arctic with no clear sight of a promised land, then sure, we can reroll once or twice.

But the point of diplogaming is not to get the highest score, and I really think a player could survive founding a second city a bit further from where he or she would favor due to tundra.

Also, the temperate maps shown, in my opinion, give enough space for each Civ to at least make an honest start.

But I pray we don't have to resolve this by casting ballots.

[Prussia]

Yes, agree with Frank 100%.

Aso, what people have to realize is that the vassal system allows for you not having to be torn down if you are in a bad starting location.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't sympathize with those who start in impossible situations, but there could develop a scoring system that if you chose your master carefully, you get a score bonus, or something.

[deity]

Originally posted by Frank Johnson
You guys say stuff like that, but then ignore diplo game history. In previous editions of civ, diplo games were played on premade maps, with starting positions well known, and expansion possiblilities or lack there off, were entered into with every party knowing full well what they were doing. Sure, ozzy "chose" to play the arabs once and start in the desert. But pretty much everyone else haggled and positioned and demanded a river and at least 3 specials for the capital.

Now we get a request as simple as, "don't doom a civ to an eternity in ice." and we get complaints due to lack of roleplaying options? We want the thrill of discovery that a random map gives. We also don't want the map generator determining who gets to do well, and who gets to be someone's *****.

But that was Civ 2 Frank.

HOTW5 was random (not sure if it was balanced).

I still support random, huge, Terra, balanced with LOW sea levels and I like Frank's suggestion to cut down the ice.

[deity]

Originally posted by Frank Johnson
Lz, "Variation" isn't worth much if it means 2-4 civilizations are stunted because of a tundra start and tundra frontier. It promotes ladder style gambits, not diplo style interation. I got a tundra start once. Then someone bottled me in a founded a holy city. Then I warrior rushed it. I fixed my problem, but ruined another player's game in 2000bc. All that does is sow the seeds for whiners and leavers later. I value everyone having a base to build on over variation.

I have to agree with this.

To minimise quitting and whinging we must have maximum land area with low sea level and maximum useable land with Tropical.

There's still plenty of variation but let's get everyone off to a reasonable start and hopefully all players still there at game end...

[deity]

Originally posted by Toni
Looking at those normal sea level maps, I still believe that each one of us can fit 4-5 cities the most. Hmm a bit worried about that, isn’t that just too little guys?

What map sets did u had in HOTW5?

I think it was large (not huge) but only 8/9 players.

Can we please settle on:

Huge Y
Terra Y
Random Y
Balanced Y
Low Sea levels Y
Tropical Y

All vote and shut the f$%k up

[Toni]

I vote:

Huge Y
Terra Y
Random Y
Balanced Y
Low Sea levels Y
Tropical Y

[Schtix]

Lord of mine, I knew it would come to this.

Y for all-let's get this over with, guys and gal(s?)!

[Rasputin]

The only people who have ever pulled out of a DIPLO game are people playing to win, those individuals who werent happy to just role play their position but had to be the winner.

So i have no time for any of those quitters.

But you guys need to be happy with the game you are playing. I am making my own game where start location is irrelevent and DIPLO style is number one, war will be a large part of the game, not the kick the little guy next door wars that occur in most diplo games, but wars for resources, limited exchangs of territory that the world of players will see and be happy with or they will intervene to stop someone from crushing others.

[Colonel_Treize]

Originally posted by Prussia
Yes, agree with Frank 100%.

Aso, what people have to realize is that the vassal system allows for you not having to be torn down if you are in a bad starting location.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't sympathize with those who start in impossible situations, but there could develop a scoring system that if you chose your master carefully, you get a score bonus, or something.

But Frank doesn't want to become someone's 'Vassal'! And let's not kid ourselves, that's the polite term for becoming someone's ***** because no one wants to become a vassal! The only clear advantage to becoming a vassal is that your Master is supposed to help defend your land as if it were his own.

On the other hand, in real life, civilizations wouldn't be able to choose where they start and with what resources. I think it should be role-played. You have a lot more control when you found your second city, anyhow. That said, I agree with Y for all, as long as we don't get to see the whole map before-hand. At least, please don't show it to the players who want to be surprised.

[Toni]

as long as we don't get to see the whole map before-hand. At least, please don't show it to the players who want to be surprised.

i agree with you Colonel, so lets best stay with the random map not a premade one.