HOTW7 Set up thread

[OmnipotentTrout]

OK!

9-10 players

Let's discuss rules for this diplo game

[The Capo]

Good show Trout. Unfortunately I may not have time to play a second game, but I'll keep checking in to see how it is going. I suggest getting in contact with a new member, Sabrdrak, who seems to be just what the doctor ordered as far as newbies go.

[Metaliturtle]

I'd be interested in getting into a diplogame, can someone clue me in a bit, I've kinda read the FAQ threads already

[OmnipotentTrout]

Cool!

We're thinking about doing a cross between History of the World 5 and 6, taking lessons from both with regard to tech trading, story lines (role playing part), number of players, maps and codes of honor.

I will be sumerizing things as we go along here.

Basically we will have a Civ game with Epic or Maraton length with a large map type. (some prefer Terra, others prefer other types). Everyone playing are expected to write story posts (one per session at least + official RPG letters and the like) in a seperate story thread, which we will set up later.

A debate has been going on the issue of technology trading. Basically, everyone is trading all technology with each other, or that's the end result ennyhow...

Remedies are few (no good mods yet), but we have tried the option of No Tech trade in the setup of the game. It works, but has some drawbacks of cource. Another option is an honor system: You can only give away technology that you tourself have invented. (some drawbacks with this system as well)

Feel free to suggest Rules and Time for play.

- Omni

[OmnipotentTrout]

Set-up sumary for HOTW7
Suggestions so far

Confimed Players:

OmnipotentTrout
Metaliturtle

Timezone standard:
UTC

Playing length:
3 hours or 4 hours

No. of Sessions per week:
1

Playing day:
Friday or Saturday or Sunday

Playing time:
17:00-20:00 UTC

Map:
Terra

Tech issue:
No Tech Trade or Honor System

Attack sequence:
Simultanious moves/attack

Role Playing (story thread):
minimum 1 post per session

Short form of "Diplo code of honor":
No sneak attack
Stay in character (no out of character grudges or similar)
No destruction of wonders
No conquering of capitals
No excessive conquering (peace negotiations should be sought)
Try not to start a caveman war
Behave Civil towards other players

Restart conditions:
Turn 1 if there is agreement
Breaking Diplo code of honor early in the game

Please post other suggestions and comments: this list is Incomplete

[Toni]

I would love to join u guys in HOTW7

100% reliable ask Deity he can vouch for me.

[OmnipotentTrout]

Welcome Toni!
::adding to the list::

We're already getting a good list
Wonder if teh mighty Rah will join the flock?
He seems to be so active now-a-days...
(even if he didn't get into the third person spirit, and closed the thread, oh well)

[LzPrst]

rarrrrghh!! me might join. depending on outcome of hotw6, in other words, how soon it takes to finish.

however I would like to comment something on the honor code list. I am in principle against a set of rules in a diplogame, I am however in favour of an honor code, but a less detailed one.

first. wonders of the world should be allowed to be destroyed. I know its really really harsh and destructive, but many wonders of the world have been destroyed throughout history (though natural disaster is the most common cause). regardless, most people wont destroy a wonder anyway so I dont find the necessity of adding this rule that is imo more of a rule than a code of reasonable conduct. if someone has a good reason for razing a city with a wonder it shouldnt be illegal. though you must have a damned good reason and it must be thorougly and clearly RP'ed.

Sneak attacks are extremely bad form, iirc the faq refers to them as a faux pas. However, we should probably make a clear definition of what is considered a sneak attack. If I have understood both parties in hotw5 correctly, america and india both feel to some extent that they have been sneak attacked by the other on separate occassions, one in response to the other. Once again, sneak attacks should not be made illegal, but they are strongly discouraged and should cause a considerable loss in reputation and trustworthiness for the aggressor civ and likely result in extreme consequences as it is an extreme and undiplomatic action.

Conquering capitals should also be allowed. (paris and berlin in ww2, moscow in napoleonic wars are examples in rl history) But the conqueror should be extremely inclined to hand it back and such extreme moves should be extremely rare. The goal of such an action should not be defeat of a player and the aftermath of such a war should reflect that, involving some form of restitution of the conquered civ. Though demands may be made by the conqueror, such as changes to civics\religion, war indemnities, diplomatic or military support. It is important that neither the conqueror or the conquered expect the results to be permanent.

Caveman wars are imo not in the spirit of diplogames, and they also do more harm than good usually so no problem with them being discouraged in the code of diplo, though they should not be made "illegal".

As for excessive conquering. once again, if rp'ed and followed through properly, they shouldnt be illegal. Discouraged, yes, but the main thing to remember is that civs that do conquer large amounts of land from another civ get huge maintenance costs reducing them. They should also attempt to balance the situation in some manner. for example, it should be possible for the romans\arabs\mongols (examples from history) to build massive empires through conquest, but large empires built through conquest of other players should be likely victims to defections, rebellions and what have you. since the game doesnt really allow for this mechanically (except culture that isnt really all that effective against human brains) it must be thoroughly RP'ed by the conquering player acting not just in his own longterm ingame interest but follow the likely development of his civ for better or worse. again, this must be shown by good rp.

The main thing to remember is that we want the game to be fluent, dynamic and fun. rules reduce this. however, a code of honor that merely encourages certain behaviour might be a good thing, though it shouldnt be binding, merely suggestive, nor should it be too detailed or extensive.

If I were to make a few suggestions to this it would be:

1. The Anachronismic Principle
Staying in character includes ingame actions regarding technology and distance. In early times distance should limit the sphere of interest of a civ, expanding with technological developments and time. Trade routes, resource- and tech trading with civs that are very far away should also be affected by this principle. Such a limitation and its extent is of course fully optional, but these things should weigh in when nations make their decisions. Considering whether it is unlikely that you send troops to the other side of the world in 1000 BC is imo not against the spirit of diplo, it is for it.
(in hotw5 a world war ensued long before 1.AD. I'm not saying this shouldnt be allowed, but it is something of an anachronism and imo should be discouraged.)

2. The Non-Annhiliation Principle
The name is probably somewhat misleading, but I do feel that no civ should be exterminated from the game. As an extent of this principle larger civs could be inclined to show more goodwill towards smaller civs, having a lower treshold for giving favorable deals and such. This should also be fully optional in extent and practice and dependent on the diplomatic situation. But it would be "food for thought" when very powerful civs consider their actions.


The Reputation Principle
Relations between civs should be affected by a number of factors. These being, in no way listed by value;
*Historical relationship (the diplomatic ups and downs between the 2 civs. older interactions should generallyy have less weight than newer ones)
*Current relationship (closeness between current rulers for the session)
*Civics and religions

Apart from that the only "rule" I am in favor of is that
tech trading should be somewhat limited. The "only trade away techs you researched yourself" is a good solution imo.

[OzzyKP]

I agree with Lz. As much as possible we should shy away from hard rules and more lump things into a more flexible "code of conduct" taking a capitol & razing wonders and all of that should be very much discouraged and frowned upon, and there should be serious consequences in-game for the civ that chooses it, but it shouldn't be an absolute rule.

As for the The Anachronismic Principle, its hard to apply RL to a civ game in that regard. In the real world there were far more than 9 civs on the planet. If we limit tech trading and alliances to one's immediate neighbors then everyone would buddy up with their neighbor and no one would ever fight any wars. That leads to a stagnant game.

[OmnipotentTrout]

Good to see a constructive debate!

Thank you for the details in some of the diplogame guidelines.

I merely made a "short form" of the "guidelines" so everyone bothered reading them. (Long descriptions tend to put some people off).

My little list is only suggesting what the Diplo code of Honor is about, I did not want to imply that these are the rules. I will change the header etc...

The point I think is that every participant knows that this is a Diplogame, and not your regular multiplayer/blazing game

The Anachronismic Principle is a part of keeping in character I feel and also the Reputation Principle, but it's good that you explained this element of roleplaying.

There are more elements of roleplaying I could describe, but I felt it would take three threads just to start explaining all the factors you have to consider to make your game-play as close as possible to the behavior of a ruler of a nation.

I will keep the short list of diplo code of honor, but as a recommendation of a mean/norm rather than an absolute (which I never intended). People who have never played Diplogames will need a short form of this code of conduct, since I doubt all new players will bother reading entire threads about the minute aspects of diplogaming.

But your deepening of what lies behind this honor code is welcome!

Any suggestions on maps, playing time etc?

Are you joining Ozzy?

[OmnipotentTrout]

Version 2: Set-up sumary for HOTW7
Suggestions so far

Confimed Players:

OmnipotentTrout
Metaliturtle

Timezone standard:
UTC

Playing length:
3 hours or 4 hours

No. of Sessions per week:
1

Playing day:
Friday or Saturday or Sunday

Playing time:
17:00-20:00 UTC

Map:
Terra

Tech issue:
- Honor System -
Players can only give away/trade technology which they themselves have invented.

Attack sequence:
Simultanious moves/attack

Role Playing (story thread):
minimum 1 post per session

Short form of "Diplo code of honor", which is not the law but recommendations for avoiding conflicts out-of-character and in-character:
Avoid sneak attacks (unless you have a RP reson)
Try to stay in character (behave in-game as you think your ruler would, no out of character grudges or similar)
Avoid destruction of wonders (unless you really want to)
Avoid excessive conquering (except if you want to make an empire (should have RP reson), but peace negotiations should be sought)
Try not to start a caveman war
Behave Civil towards other players

More definite rules:
No annihilation of players
Do not use savegames for cheating (i.e. checking other civs or playing in single player to see what happens)
Don't edit your story posts (If you say that you are an ally, then you are, can't change history only the future )

Restart conditions:
Turn 1 if there is agreement
Breaking Diplo code of Honor early in the game

Please post other suggestions and comments: this list is Incomplete

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by OmnipotentTrout
Are you joining Ozzy?

Sadly no, one diplogame at any one time is more than enough for me.

[Metaliturtle]

How much are we allowed to customize our nation?

[Metaliturtle]

Also I'm new to Multiplaying, is this a PBEM situation or on the gamespy servers with turntimes etc?

[OzzyKP]

Usually they are set up via Direct IP, though the gamespy server would work too. So definitely not PBEM, you'd need to arrange a regular session where everyone gets online to play.

But no turn timers. Diplogames are more relaxed than the typical MP game online. We prefer quality over quantity.