comparison game for woodan and whom else

[wodan11]

I'm not really experienced enough with SE's to know. I could see an argument that CS isn't needed especially on a map like this since getting the food to run more than 2 merchants or scientists in most city locations is difficult. I realize you can designate cities such as giving one a market and running merchants, and another a library and running scientists but it still seems to me like there's a huge advantage to running CS when using a SE.

You're talking about CS allowing unlimited specialists?

On high levels, happy limits are harder, and some maps with low resources harder still. Yet, buildings etc which permit specialists don't scale... they permit the same number of added specialists.

So, clearly, CS being unlimited is more of an advantage on lower levels than higher.

Let's go a step further. Consider for example the "mixed" SE. This runs mixed types of spcialists, and thus we see for example each city running 2 merchants (Market), 2 scientists (Library), another 2 merchants (grocer) etc. This is by design and is not a negative.

Another example. I've mentioned the SE->CE switch before. SE by inherent nature of the progressive cost of GP is more powerful early, and loses power later. Meanwhile, by the progressive nature of Towns, CE is less powerful early and more powerful later. Doing a switch (with help of Emanciation) makes a lot of sense. Clearly, you can't run CS and Emancipation at the same time, so when and how you convert is tricky and the heart of this strategy, and is where skilled players shine. In fact, it's arguable whether it's good to switch to CS at all... usually when I do this I use Serfdom to 2x my farm->cottage conversion. Slavery early, then Serfdom, then Emancipation.

Even in a more "normal" SE, Slavery has clear advantages. (So does Serfdom, but a lot of people underestimate Serfdom's benefits in my opinion; that's beside the point though.)

I disagree here. An unhealthy city isn't as bad as an unhappy city but you do take increased maintenance costs for what often times is the same level of production.

Yes good point but I won't concede the "often the same" modifier without some data. My gut feeling is that yes it adds some but I'd interpret your claim as being equivalent to saying "the increased maintenance of 1/2 a citizen is less than the benefit of that 1/2 citizen" which I don't buy.

Right, I was referring to slavery under a CE. It seems less useful when under an SE due to slower growth if you want specialists but I suppose that's why CS has the workshop bonus. It helps to make up for the sheer power whipping has.

Are you saying that a SE runs specialists while growing and therefore grows slower than a CE?

If so, I don't agree the SE has to run specialists to regrow the fastest (it's arguably better to turn them off and then back on). I also don't agree that running specialists means the SE city grows more slowly than a CE city, even when running specialists.

[Brael]

You're talking about CS allowing unlimited specialists?

On high levels, happy limits are harder, and some maps with low resources harder still. Yet, buildings etc which permit specialists don't scale... they permit the same number of added specialists.

I thought happy limits were set to 6 for every level now with the AI playing better instead. Is that wrong? Anyways, the buildings don't scale but they do require the buildings to be made. I certainly see CS being phased out as the game goes on, with the only exceptions probably being culture wins and small maps and that's because in a WS or Oxford city you would want to go beyond the cap of 7 (2 early building, 2 later building, 3 national wonder) and max that city out. That's of less and less benefit as the map gets larger however.

Let's go a step further. Consider for example the "mixed" SE. This runs mixed types of spcialists, and thus we see for example each city running 2 merchants (Market), 2 scientists (Library), another 2 merchants (grocer) etc. This is by design and is not a negative.

Ahh, but lets say you have two cities each capable of running 8 specialists like this. Wouldn't it be a wiser move to simply build a library/observatory in one and a market/grocer in the other while using CS? You could then reduce your need for 4 buildings while getting the same benefit (and in reality slightly more as you would have other buildings with those hammers).

Another example. I've mentioned the SE->CE switch before. SE by inherent nature of the progressive cost of GP is more powerful early, and loses power later. Meanwhile, by the progressive nature of Towns, CE is less powerful early and more powerful later. Doing a switch (with help of Emanciation) makes a lot of sense. Clearly, you can't run CS and Emancipation at the same time, so when and how you convert is tricky and the heart of this strategy, and is where skilled players shine. In fact, it's arguable whether it's good to switch to CS at all... usually when I do this I use Serfdom to 2x my farm->cottage conversion. Slavery early, then Serfdom, then Emancipation.

I agree that SE loses some power later, but that is prolonged for awhile. I think the weakest point is just before biology, and then again a little while after that. Anyways, I've never really done a switch (yay for almost never playing with a SE) but I'm not seeing how serfdom really speeds it up. Couldn't you use the same strategy as with pre chopping forests to prebuild farms? Once they're nearly complete move on to another tile. It wouldn't convert everything at once unless you switched after biology, but that seems to remove a large benefit of serfdom. Provided you have the worker turns available before it's time to switch.

Even in a more "normal" SE, Slavery has clear advantages. (So does Serfdom, but a lot of people underestimate Serfdom's benefits in my opinion; that's beside the point though.)

I'll grant that slavery has the production advantage, but that's what it's designed for. I would ask though, if you're using CS do you have a need for slavery in the first place? Like I pointed out above, CS saves on necessary infrastructure and by the time guilds comes around a workshop is an ok improvement under CS, basically converting a tile from flat land to a mined hill.

Are you saying that a SE runs specialists while growing and therefore grows slower than a CE?

If so, I don't agree the SE has to run specialists to regrow the fastest (it's arguably better to turn them off and then back on). I also don't agree that running specialists means the SE city grows more slowly than a CE city, even when running specialists.

Well, if you're turning the specialists off you're certainly going to regrow as fast as a CE if not faster as you can work more farms, but how much time is spent regrowing? If 25% of the time you're using specialists has them turned off that's going to add up and reduce the overall efficiency of the economy. Remember, specialists are equal, one scientist is just as good as another scientist. When whipping under a CE though, you're sacrificing work on the worst tiles you're working, it's the same concept as what we were talking about earlier with city overlap. Not every tile is equal.

[brandonjm8]

After Woodan's I've already got a map picked out... maybe. I would post it now but it would either take away from this, or scare people away from the idea of some comparison games all together, it's a real brutal map. It took me 6 tries to survive to 2k BC and even that took a bit of luck. At 400 AD I've been in 3 wars, fought off barbarian hordes, and have Hannibal with a stack of 25 units on my border... pre construction. Oh and that's a normal size map (64x40 size) so 25 units there would scale to ~330 units on this map for reference (248x136 I think) if you're scaling by area. I want my catapults.

I might replay yours utilizing what I learned to tweak my approach to SE's a bit. I spent most of the last game testing different approaches in different cities since I've done very few SE games ever, so I have a better idea now of what I need to do. I also realized I can't go for a quick win to avoid the lag in the later game, so if I replay it I'll focus on conquering.

brael,

ive yet to use the spy system for bts, but i guess in wodans game im getting a crash course in it, any pointers?

want us to get slaughtered huh? "THERE WILL BE BLOOD" right? , sure i'll try it.

i wouldnt replay that map of mine, like i stated already, theres missing resources and our continent blows. next time i submit a map to play, im gonna regenerate til a good balanced one with all resources is generated or make one of my own.

[brandonjm8]

as far as the SE and CE debate goes, if you have multiple religions and certain wonders, as soon as you hit biology the SE skyrockets, faster growing cities to support more specialists and that much more specialists. if you run a CE, biology will have little effect.

[smbakeresq]

Hate to ask, but how did you get a map that size, 2xhuge?

[Brael]

want us to get slaughtered huh? "THERE WILL BE BLOOD" right? , sure i'll try it.

Here brandon, just play this to 1 ad or better yet 1k ad, I think you'll understand everyones point when we say what we say about your games (actually, since you like building up I kind of wonder why you don't go with the advanced start option).

http://www.mediafire.com/?5gdznuozkiz

If you make it that far put a save up, I'm curious to see an empire comparison.

And no, no spy system pointers. I usually neglect espionage other than to cause revolts which just plain own.

i wouldnt replay that map of mine, like i stated already, theres missing resources and our continent blows. next time i submit a map to play, im gonna regenerate til a good balanced one with all resources is generated or make one of my own.

I'm replaying it actually, the land blows but I'm taking a different approach to the game. The one nice thing about a map of that size is I remember some stuff but a lot of it I don't remember, so I've actually got a good comparison to see how different approaches change things. For example, this time around I managed to found five religions (all in one city too) but I'm getting started on circumnavigation much slower. Though I may still pull it off earlier simply by knowing I can run boats up top and avoid going around large continents which delayed me a lot of turns before.

Hate to ask, but how did you get a map that size, 2xhuge?

Planet Generator .68 map script.

[smbakeresq]

Brael

Thanks very much

[brandonjm8]

smbakeresq,

goto civfanatics.com, search for "planet_generator_0_68" map script.
if that doesnt work, use "gigantic maps bts" as search words then look for above mentioned.

oops brael beat me to it, that link should take you there directly.

[brandonjm8]

hey brael,

cant load your game save, a message flashes very fast but i think it says something about password protected or something. does that game use a different mod? since its small, you can upload the file here. other than that the message flashes too quick to make it all out, i tried three times.

[Brael]

hey brael,

cant load your game save, a message flashes very fast but i think it says something about password protected or something. does that game use a different mod? since its small, you can upload the file here. other than that the message flashes too quick to make it all out, i tried three times.

That's odd, it should have only disabled the world builder. There's no mods on it other than global warming being disabled which doesn't require a mod to be installed.

Well, here it is without that. It should work.

[brandonjm8]

brael,

it works now, immortal hey? , i may be ready for monarch but immortal? will give it a go maybe tomorrow, i'll try once, map's too small for me and its pangea style (i prefer continents since thats more realistic), plenty of good land despite all the deserts, alot of AI's for such a small map, with a wonder whoring/fast expanding leader warring wont be easy, increased GG trait w/ pratoreans early would be ideal but thats if they dont have riflemen/cavalry by that time . will post 1 A.D. and 1000 A.D. (if i make that far) saves, will be alot different tho.

as far as what you are tying to say regarding my style, i think i proved that i am more powerful/better suited for that style while you and some others are better suited for this style. to each his own right.

as far as that game goes, im getting closer and closer to winning via domination. since i allied myself with brennus i since have vassalized frederick, at war with hannibal and will soon vassalize him, then its on to mana musa then mao and the ottomans. after all that, either vassalizing ragnar and saladin or darius that should then be enough, that is if i dont win via diplo or space by then. almost done building factories/coal plants, once thats done and with my science being awesome and making 200 gold/turn at 100% science, i can amass several armies in maybe 30 turns taking care of hannibal and mana musa at the same time, at least thats what im planning on (will be alot easier depending on how long it takes brennus to finish his fact/coal. this games won for me, just gonna be awhile now that turns take longer. if you want my most current save of that game for comparing or whatever, lemme know.

[Brael]

Brennus suffers from the same problem as Hannibal. A lack of late game resources. You can remove all ability they have to defend with a couple of bombers and ships. Hannibal's only oil (and he has no uranium) happens to be sea based while Brennus has coastal oil with his only uranium a couple tiles in.

The only possible defense either of them can do is Brennus using sam's to deter bombers, but you can take care of that by making a new bomber every now and then. It's worth it to deny the resource. Without oil no navy can oppose you and no army can scratch you. That entire continent is one giant pinata late game.

In my replay it's 1100 ad and I've got the world following three religions. Cyrus/Isabella are Buddhist, Mao/Mansa/Fredrick/Mehmed are Taoist, and I converted everyone else to Hindu. I'm taking advantage of that large lake in the middle by placing one far city to act as a canal (helped by a fort). Any attack that comes at me will almost certainly hit that spot letting me concentrate my defense and pretty much insulate my entire empire. Atleast as far as Mansa is concerned. I don't think I'll need it to defend me though, I'm planning for my initial war to take his capital and 4 other good cities surrounding it. That will give me a nice foothold and slow mansa considerably. From there I can do the same thing to Cyrus which leaves Mehmed as the only AI that can pose a threat since Fredrick/Mao are too busy killing each other.

As for that map, you'll probably need more than 1 try to reach 1 ad. I'll give you a hint though... those raging barbs (the real ones, not the lions, tigers, and bears) start up at 3100 bc. Be ready for them. The AI's aren't all that crowded though, it's using the default number of civs for that size of a map. I found room for about 6 cities myself, although I only had the economy to support 4.

[brandonjm8]

in my game, brennus is the undisputed superpower, he has over 250 infantry/riflemen, bout 50-60 cavalry/knights, 40-50 cannons, but weak navy. he has over 70 cities in my game, i have 43 (that i created, ive taken two from hannibal, the two he plopped on my land) and steadily building more. frederick offered to be my vassal after hannibal attacked him, had to get in a war to vassalize frederick that easy, oh well planned on it anyways since hannibal put two cities on my land and on ragnars too for the oil, i have my army over there going to take those cities too. and this way once brennus get his chit together (he had the vast majority of his army on fred's side but now hes attacking hannibal) hes lost one city to hannibal but bout to take two from him then retake that one. we got infantry to his riflemen. soon we'll have tanks, thus adding to brennus's cities. as far as oil goes once i take hannibals on ragnar continent (i have two cities on that continent myself) i'll just give brennus that one if he needs it, he has a city on his uranium. i picked brennus cuz of his power and closeness to help me vassalize the big continent, shouldnt be too difficult. as soon as im done with the fact/coal's then possible health buildings if needed, amassing an army wont take long. once i get tanks i'll shoot right for gunships to upgrade all my cavalry. instead of making a ton of cannons for hannibal, i'll make alot of airships and send tons of infantry/cavalry and save and make some more cannons then artillery for mana musa. i cant really use my warlord til gunships , oops. the only person i see being a challenge is darius, hes much more powerful in my game and has two vassals himself. mao is strong but with frederick over there and once ive vassalized hannibal, they'll all fall like domino's. mana musa, mao, mehmed dont stand a chance.

[trev]

I played a little more of my game, Mao has mansa as voluntary vassal, Frederick capitulated to him, so he is most powerful. I took the risk of attaking Mansa despite Mao's vassalage of him, took 8 key cities of Mansa and made peace. Hopefully that number of cities can be self supporting and self defend without a lot of help. Mao although very powerful only has muskets and knights etc, while I have cannons, cavalry and riflemen.
Ragner attacked and invaded my continent, razing a small city and capturing another. I have quickly destroyed his 2 stacks, destroyed enough of another stack of galleons, that he run back home for safety. I have rebuilt razed city, will recapture other on next turn and planted more cities in the vacant area so I can maintain control of whole continent, room for about 6 more cities I think, maybe less. Now 62 cities or thereabouts in total, running significant cash surplus so I can rush buildigns and units with cash. Probably will not advance game a lot before next weekend now.

[brandonjm8]

brael,

i played that game til like 1000 bc or something like that, to be honest i got bored. i will say the raging barbs when you are in the center is annoying , i am easily able to hold them off but with no copper or iron, taking the barb city on the only copper close to me would take alot of archers. genghis got destroyed by the barbs, which i dont like barbs wiping out the AI for me. i will admit, my style doesnt help with these settings: small/pangea and overcrowdedness, i wouldnt have been able to keep up the AI expanding and building so many units to have a chance. as far as these settings go, i submit that i need alot of exp with this, but since i prefer continents and larger maps w/o the barbs wiping the AI out for me, i probably wont play these settings like you do and vice-versa some of you dont like my settings. as someone once said (i think it was wodan on another thread, doesnt matter really) with different settings, winning the game late game is just as hard if not harder than winning early and winning early can be harder than winning it late game. to each our own tho, we all have our "fun" games how we like em for different reasons. as you guys saw with my settings, especially with our lack of a nice continent, winning at all on that map is not easy even tho we were on our own continent, just as winning that game from you brael is not easy either. goodluck btw. im gonna create a map with: prince/13 AI's/6 continents/no barbs and events, pretty much same settings as my last but with one more AI but one less continent but this time with espionage enabled so i can get used to it, and this time i will make sure all resources are present. last game there was no deer/sheep/crab, if those are missing again i'll go from north to south and fill in whatever resources are missing by replacing ones already present with whats missing by dividing the map equally by the number of missing resources and by going north to south. i will do crabs alittle more but not throughout if they are missing again. its kinda weird, my first game on this mapscript i played the second biggest map (way too big of a map) but there were no missing resources, hmmmm. i dont know how that game wasnt missing anything yet our game was missing three resources, weird.

well if anybody's interested in the new map with above mentioned settings with a balanced map this time whenever youd like to play it after wodan's map, lemme know.

if wodan's map is anything like yours brael, i will get my butt kicked if not lose horribly . im not saying i would definitely get wiped out (anythings possible, has yet to happen, might've this game) but id be hard pressed to keep up and have any chance of winning. if i was more of a warmonger than a builder, id probably have more interest and be better suited for those style maps. as you already know, i like having room for us all to expand then to try to dominate if not space/diplo/culture victories since early conquest even just conquest isnt always possible with my settings. goodluck all.

wodan, how far are you so far on my game? what kind of game do you have in mind for picking once your done? keep us posted and whatever game im playing i'll put it on hold to play yours whenever.