comparison game for woodan and whom else

[brandonjm8]

Up to 1506 AD, save attached.

Not sure how much longer I can play something this big, I'm already getting jerky movement on the screen (dual core processor with 4 GB ram, good graphics card, admittedly limited hard drive space due to partitioning).

Not getting any demands except to stop trading with Germany (who is largest), definitely behind on power graph but starting to build up so no big deal so far.

Oddly enough, I miss espionage at this point, be nice to get something else useful out of the courthouses and I'd like to know what the neighbours are researching.

Running the science at 20% while expanding, enough specialists to keep it going, but likely too slow.

To be honest, I don't expect to win this, too many differences from my usual set of options and I already see a lot I would do differently.

Again, the beauty of Civ, its so many different games.

hmmm, your system specs are almost identical to mine (4gigs ram, dual-core too, nvidia graphics, but plenty of hdd space), one thing ive done before is to change your game settings to medium if not low for this game to help your comp's resources, if that doesnt help and you cant finish its alright, ive yet to have any problems thus far with these size maps, even on the biggest i didnt have any problems but man that was a big map, easily holds 40 AI's.

i took a look at your game and peeked using WB, yes you small compared to most. frederick is huge already, in my game the chinese beat him to the north thus cutting him off, mao and fred are warring with one another pretty regulary. darius is the monster for my game, he vassalized isabella early and created justinian so he has two vassals and all three are taking churchill apart right now, which helps me keep darius's attention away from me. only mana musa might have a tech lead over me but his time is coming soon. my two allies are brennus and hannibal, i converted half the world pretty early to avoid some enemies and gain some powerful allies, brennus now is the superpower and hes the one im gonna ally myself with, with my science and his power we should be able to crush mana musa pretty quick then mao.

thats another reason i like not having spies, your intel is very limited and chance for mistakes go up. at least through the foreign advisor you can see what they have.

i think your chances are minimal this game but goodluck. when we play wodan's game im gonna have to remember alotta things quickly, hope i do well that game.

[brandonjm8]

I never understand when people say things like that. I would go bonkers if I had a play style. I can't imagine anything more boring than playing the same way all the time.

well how you go about doing will be different, what victory type you go for, how much of a challenge you have, the AI simply kicking your butt. i generally play my hybrid game but i dont always get too so my approaches/strategies will differ.

Actually, I can't think of a single instance where cannon/artillery killed an entire unit. Damage to a Rifleman troop, for example, means the unit has suffered casualties. So if the unit represents 100 people, some number of those people are killed or incapacitated. But the artillery doesn't kill all 100 people, even with multiple shots.

well for the most part you are right but there are some instances like you said should you fire enough you will end up killing them all. to keep it simple for the game i see why they did what they did for bts, wonder why it was different for vanilla?

Upgrading is really expensive. It's often much better to simply build new, modern units.

which is why i dont build massive early armies. but if i get my religions and AW and rep gov't, simply switching the gold slider all the way for 10+ turns allows me to upgrade everything, science may get behind depending on your AI's and how many specialists you have but your power will skyrocket and the need for you to build modern units wont be as high.

Depends on whether you have some solid production cities to churn out units, at least one with Heroic Epic. But then, didn't you say you don't specialize your cities? If so, then there are negatives to that.

i have several unit producing cities. and yes i specialize most of my cities, for instance: coastal are my economic cities, ones with alotta hills are for units, ones with many river tiles will be both (once i get levee's that is).

Upgrading is useful sometimes, yes. But I get the feeling you do it pretty much every game.

as much as i can, if im far behind on techs the process will be much slower, if im ahead upgrading will be a high priority, especially if im vulnerable or at war or bout to be or invading.

They are no more spyware than any other software. Just be sure you get it from a reputable company. Look on cnet.com and other places for product reviews. If it's there, it's a reputable company.

thanks.

[wodan11]

to keep it simple for the game i see why they did what they did for bts, wonder why it was different for vanilla?

Because the designers underestimated the ability of gamers to min/max the system.

which is why i dont build massive early armies. but if i get my religions and AW and rep gov't, simply switching the gold slider all the way for 10+ turns allows me to upgrade everything, science may get behind depending on your AI's and how many specialists you have but your power will skyrocket and the need for you to build modern units wont be as high.

You say "switch the gold slider all the way" and "your science may get behind" all in the same breath. I wonder if there's a correlation there?

i have several unit producing cities. and yes i specialize most of my cities, for instance: coastal are my economic cities, ones with alotta hills are for units, ones with many river tiles will be both (once i get levee's that is).

I thought you said you put 3-5 cottages in all your cities, etc. To me, that's not specializing. A production city doesn't have cottages. It's counter productive (pun intended and very apt).

as much as i can, if im far behind on techs the process will be much slower, if im ahead upgrading will be a high priority, especially if im vulnerable or at war or bout to be or invading.

Yeah, you might consider the negatives of blowing all that cash and try it a different way in a future game or two. I think you'll find your science isn't so far behind... maybe even ahead.

[Brael]

brael, i checked your 1800 save, im not bashing you ok but im only at 1740 and by the time i get to 1800 i'll be more advanced much more powerful and much bigger. im already over 1700 beakers and thats w/o oxford yet (building up delayed that, one univ short), and im running at 90% easily w/o WS yet (one bank away too ), i'll have those both built and crusing, i have an artist and engineer waiting for the corps too. need two scientists tho, one for corps and the other for my oxford city, i cant put both WS and OX in my cap since i put NE in it, my GP rate is ridiculous too, another reason i like my hybrid style of the SE approach.

I'm not surprised. I delayed astronomy for a really long time and still haven't placed Oxford (not that oxford matters, the more cities you have the less value you get from national wonders). Too many cities that are still small as well. I might be running rep but I'm hardly running a bunch of specialists. I could run more but to be perfectly honest, I get messages about cities and don't even know where they are. That kind of detracts from any incentive I have to manage them better.

[brandonjm8]

Because the designers underestimated the ability of gamers to min/max the system.

what are they getting paid for?

You say "switch the gold slider all the way" and "your science may get behind" all in the same breath. I wonder if there's a correlation there?

yep i said "MAY" , usually when i upgrade heavily and switch to a 100% gold its when im far ahead or enough ahead to let them catch up on one or two techs. if im on par i'll switch it alittle, if im behind i wont switch unless war breaks out.

I thought you said you put 3-5 cottages in all your cities, etc. To me, that's not specializing. A production city doesn't have cottages. It's counter productive (pun intended and very apt).

i said i avg 3-5 , some none some more, i change tiles when needed too for specializing my cities. the reason you will or may see cottages on some of my unit producing cities is that tile is flood plains or for my IW city its nothing but farmland and mines/windmills (i try to get that city to use all engineers since IW gives you 3 more for cap of engineers). granted i dont always specialize most of my cities compared to you guys, but i do for some. the reason i may put SOME cottages on high hammer cities is to make use of their gold/science multipliers should i build them so they can make units while adding alittle bit to the economy, if i do that the most i lose at most would be 6-12 hammers but i usually dont go that far.

Yeah, you might consider the negatives of blowing all that cash and try it a different way in a future game or two.

until late game when i change to US, upgrading units is about it. remember no tech trading or brokering for me and i usually dont pay others for their maps so upgrading units is bout the most i do for much of the game.

[brandonjm8]

I'm not surprised. I delayed astronomy for a really long time and still haven't placed Oxford (not that oxford matters, the more cities you have the less value you get from national wonders). Too many cities that are still small as well. I might be running rep but I'm hardly running a bunch of specialists. I could run more but to be perfectly honest, I get messages about cities and don't even know where they are. That kind of detracts from any incentive I have to manage them better.

semi-update:

its 1768 and im over 2300 beakers now, still no WS or OX yet but they are being built now. im racing to facism for the GG and alliances then on too biology, then combustion or medicine. i think i may have to win peacefully too since the continent placement/shapes make it hard going east to west (brennus and hannibals goes from north to south the entire way) but im still gonna vassalize mana musa, his science is damn good and i could use it, gotta start building an army, need cannons and more riflemen (then infantry) and some cavalry. hopefully my warlord doesnt die, made him a cavalry but mana doesnt have alot of riflemen, still bows and muskets. watching some football now but should get too 1800 tonight.

[Brael]

SE has several quite varied implementation types. Some use Caste System, some don't.

I'm not really experienced enough with SE's to know. I could see an argument that CS isn't needed especially on a map like this since getting the food to run more than 2 merchants or scientists in most city locations is difficult. I realize you can designate cities such as giving one a market and running merchants, and another a library and running scientists but it still seems to me like there's a huge advantage to running CS when using a SE.

There's no harm if constrained by health, there is harm if constrained by happy. The latter takes careful timing and micro to minimize.

I disagree here. An unhealthy city isn't as bad as an unhappy city but you do take increased maintenance costs for what often times is the same level of production.

If running a CE, yes. If not, then there are plenty of reasons to switch. The aforementioned Caste System for example.

Right, I was referring to slavery under a CE. It seems less useful when under an SE due to slower growth if you want specialists but I suppose that's why CS has the workshop bonus. It helps to make up for the sheer power whipping has.

[trev]

I have decided to give this a go, built nearly 50 cities and at 1500AD while running a cash balance getting 1100 beakers, have built pyramids, Great Lighthouse, Taj mahal, University of Sankore. Now running Emancipation and Universal Suffrage Free Religion, Free Speech, Free market. Room for another dozen or so cities on continent, beginning to build an army of Samarui mostly, will upgrade to Riflemen in several turns, have enough boats to move them to Mansa. Very low on powergraph, but who cares, AI will not far a while move to me, they do not have astronomy yet. I have Confucianism and Taoism with shrines, Confucian has started to spread to Ragner.
I have mostly cottaged based economy, so production less than I like, but towns with Universal Suffrage beginning to help there, had 3 golden ages so far, Taj mahal and great people induced, with this many cities that is best use of great people, not that I get many with cottage economy.

[brandonjm8]

heres my 1800 save.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/jjtnlyzcmym/brandon AD-1800.CivBeyondSwordSave

im cruising, bout 43 cities now, awesome science with only half my cities that i want to have actually have univ/obv/banks/mark/groc. allied myself with brennus, hes ubber powerful, over 250 riflemen/infantry, good amount of cannons but not much knights/cavalry, the only tech they had that i didnt was scientific method, i had assembly line and facism with some lower techs. i wouldve liked to play this game better but our continent blows, this map blows, worst yet ive played, i looked there are no crabs/sheep/deer anywhere in the map, some others might be missing too. if we do this again, im gonna regenerate til an equal balanced map is created. well anyways with brennus having like 60-70 cities and my 43, darius aint chit, once im done building factories/coal plants, time to mobilize and vassalize mana musa. will post 1850 or 1900, time is going to start to slow down big time soon, it wont be long before a turn is only 6 months (jan to july).

[brandonjm8]

I have decided to give this a go, built nearly 50 cities and at 1500AD while running a cash balance getting 1100 beakers, have built pyramids, Great Lighthouse, Taj mahal, University of Sankore. Now running Emancipation and Universal Suffrage Free Religion, Free Speech, Free market. Room for another dozen or so cities on continent, beginning to build an army of Samarui mostly, will upgrade to Riflemen in several turns, have enough boats to move them to Mansa. Very low on powergraph, but who cares, AI will not far a while move to me, they do not have astronomy yet. I have Confucianism and Taoism with shrines, Confucian has started to spread to Ragner.
I have mostly cottaged based economy, so production less than I like, but towns with Universal Suffrage beginning to help there, had 3 golden ages so far, Taj mahal and great people induced, with this many cities that is best use of great people, not that I get many with cottage economy.

mind if we take a peek at your game save? im interested to see how your 50+ cities looks like on this less than ideal continent of ours.

[Brael]

And... I quit. Turn 900 seemed like a good stopping point. I suffered a bit of a defeat in my attempt to end the game "early" by getting a diplomatic win, Mehmed has considerably more support than me, and it's unlikely I can turn that around. My next thought is to go for a space win, I'm getting 3100 beakers/turn now while running 100% science and getting a profit but I just don't feel like building up to it even though I have no doubt in my mind that I can get it, and win the game without firing a single shot (outside of the few fired in self defense against Isabella/Ragnar).

What it comes down to basically is, the map is too big for me. There's long pauses between turns, a good pause when tabbing in and out, and I don't even know my cities names, much less care at all about them because I have 50 with room for another 50 on the continent. I was hoping to end the game earlier with the UN (or AP but I didn't want to do a gimp win with it by spreading religions just before a vote) so I wouldn't have to deal with the considerable unit bulge and associated lag as the AI's start hitting the modern era, but no such luck there. I got what I wanted out of it which was practice with diplomatic wins and some SE experience.

I usually play large maps, because I would rather have a map feel a little too small for me than play huge maps which I feel are way too large. After this I might have to start playing normal sized maps for awhile.

[brandonjm8]

diplo wins are not easy with these sized maps , domination does take some time but if you have an ally it wont take long once you got your army built. all you have to do to win is vassalize the big continent then darius and isabella's, that should be enough for the win. this game did suck since our continent was horrible. chit happens, makes it more of a challenge. surprised your having problems with lag, my game is still fast and will continue to be, oh well goodluck with your other games. if your interested later i can post another game for us to play with the next smaller map size with better balance of resources, lemme know if interested.

[Brael]

They're no harder than normal, I'm just not good with them. My main problem is figuring out who's going to be strong later in the game or more likely helping them be strong so that I've got their voting power behind me. My game ended up at 16 civs due to colonies and really 16 civs or 5 civs it's really about the same. There's usually the same number of factions which are mostly created due to religions. When leaders want the same thing it doesn't really matter if there's 2 or 5 of them in that faction. It just so happened that the biggest faction (Mehmed/Cyrus) also happened to be pro Mehmed despite both being friendly with me.

Anyways, like I said... I have no doubts I could win the space race, I just don't want to play that size of a map any longer. My current game is on a normal sized map, I'm curious to see how it turns out since I'm practicing the warlord strat with it. I might post it once everyone finishes this game, it has one of the most interesting starts I've seen in a long time. There's about 50 good ways to make your initial 100 moves.

[trev]

http://www.mediafire.com/?on5uij54dwe.
Have not done this before, so hope this works ok, turn 659, 1528AD of my game, not good technically with anything beyond typing on the internet really.
Top in GDP just I think, seem to be top in techs that matter at least, weak militarily, but in my opinion that is ok, I can upgrade and buy units quickly if attacked

[Brael]

thats another reason i like not having spies, your intel is very limited and chance for mistakes go up. at least through the foreign advisor you can see what they have.

I missed this earlier, but with espionage enabled you can actually see less. To see someones demographics you need to be sending enough espionage points to them. If you don't do that all you can see is the stuff in the trade advisor and how your civ places in food, gdp, etc... to see others you need to take away from other areas.

As a result, having the spy system enabled actually reduces the intel you get and makes mistakes more likely.

i think your chances are minimal this game but goodluck. when we play wodan's game im gonna have to remember alotta things quickly, hope i do well that game.

After Woodan's I've already got a map picked out... maybe. I would post it now but it would either take away from this, or scare people away from the idea of some comparison games all together, it's a real brutal map. It took me 6 tries to survive to 2k BC and even that took a bit of luck. At 400 AD I've been in 3 wars, fought off barbarian hordes, and have Hannibal with a stack of 25 units on my border... pre construction. Oh and that's a normal size map (64x40 size) so 25 units there would scale to ~330 units on this map for reference (248x136 I think) if you're scaling by area. I want my catapults.

I might replay yours utilizing what I learned to tweak my approach to SE's a bit. I spent most of the last game testing different approaches in different cities since I've done very few SE games ever, so I have a better idea now of what I need to do. I also realized I can't go for a quick win to avoid the lag in the later game, so if I replay it I'll focus on conquering.

http://www.mediafire.com/?on5uij54dwe.
Have not done this before, so hope this works ok, turn 659, 1528AD of my game, not good technically with anything beyond typing on the internet really.

You attached it right.