comparison game for woodan and whom else

[Theben]

The way I do it is try to switch during Golden Ages.

[brandonjm8]

The way I do it is try to switch during Golden Ages.

thats a given

but would you use your first scientist to start one? first prophet if you have a shrine to build? 2nd and 3rd if you founded more religions? engineers, do you save them to hurry wonders?

if i can get some great artists and extra prophets i'll start a GA, otherwise i like to keep engineers for wonders and scientists for their academy's. merchants for a +1 food with some gold or for a big paycheck if you need to upgrade alotta units.

[brandonjm8]

so far my plan has worked, im alittle further than this last save but ive successfully taken all iron on our continent. he can make macemen but no crossbows, in the process of taking the last horse too, ive got two of the three horse so far. ive been placing cities all along the coast opposite of him. i dont think hes made another city since filling his part up. as far as my intel goes, he still has 20 cities, ive got 27 now but expanding fast still. wont stop til i have this whole continent filled. will have close to at least 80 cities if i can w/o him expanding. i see where his axemen goes to and fortifies signifying they will be building a city there then i just plop my city there, they did that for the iron an now horse, wonder whats next? . hes still #1 power but im catching up fast, bout to have guilds and held off building any horse archers to save me some coin, just got done upgrading to macemen. i'll build at least 20+ knights, with our UU being strong to archers/melee/mounted im thinking once i get gunpowder to finally conquer him til i either wipe him out or vassalize him. hes still too powerful but not for long. i should skyrocket to #1 once i build my knights and upgrade my 12 cats to trebs (you can upgrade cats to trebs right?, if not i'll just build some) my production is 2.5x better than 2nd going by demographics. alotta GG's going around out there, alotta fighting going, wonder who it is, no ones been destroyed to my knowledge yet. this is a much better game than the last.

heres my 1025 A.D. save, close enough i guess.

[Ming]

you can upgrade cats to trebs right

No...

[wodan11]

since i usually get many religions and angkor wat, biology usually helps fill ALL cities to their maxes, which adds ALOT to my science and production. since i build alot of farmland biology is critical to me for maxing out specialists and attaining great science output.

You mean by spreading many religions, you are able to build many temples, enabling you to run many priests in all your cities?

So it's not anything special about many religions... you could simply run Caste System, for example.

[wodan11]

I'm not saying you can't use an SE the entire game, just that there's better alternatives (for most cities, I think you should always be running a merchant and probably a scientist specialist city) if the game goes long enough.

Two comments here I guess.

I definitely don't agree that "there are better alternatives". Maybe if you could suggest one, I can poke holes in your suggestion.

I was using two cities for the example. The library allows two, the observatory allows two. That's four per city, with two cities that's eight.

You said "each capable of running 8 specialists" (emphasis added)

If you meant 4, then I think that's probably not enough. Generally a SE can support many more specialists. So either you have to run CS or you have to mix up types.

Essentially, it's taking city specialization to another level. Rather than build say a market, library, grocer, and observatory in two cities, if you're running CS you can instead build a market/grocer in one city, a library/observatory in the other city, run the same number of specialists, and get the same benefit with less infrastructure needed.

I agree with your goal and yes, that's a benefit of Caste System. However, in practice it's not as clean as all that. Often, you have built Libraries in all cities before CS is available. And often you build a Grocer for the health, not because you're running merchants.

In general, the analog CE builds everything, so this "mixed SE" is comparable. The CS SE has this as an added benefit and stands apart in this respect. It does have negatives however.

The same concept can apply to having markets/libraries only. Rather than having to build a market and library in each city to run mixed specialists, by running CS you can make less buildings while getting the same benefit. It's what, 720? hammers (270 library 450 market) saved on marathon. That 720 hammers per two cities translates into 8 90 hammer units (axemen for example).

Axemen are a poor example because they would certainly be obsolete if you have Observatories and Grocers.

If you were running 6 specialist cities that's another 24 units. That's a moderate sized stack of units from CS. Overall I don't think it leaves you that far behind slavery while having other benefits. It just depends on if you want another x% production or x% to your economy.

Agreed, with the above caveats.

No question on the micro. I didn't say it's something I would do. I don't like micro that much unless it's a tiny map. However, to the best of my knowledge, that 50% speed increase is additive. Steam power adds 50% to the speed meaning workers are going at 150% already. Adding another 50% makes it 200%. That's only a 33% overall increase which means it's not 20 vs 40 workers, it's 30 vs 40 workers. Since workers are 120 hammers each (marathon speed), can you say 10 workers (1200 hammers) are worth that anarchy? Your empire probably loses more than 1200 just in the switch, to say nothing of the research and coin loss. There's also the fact that the strategy means you're at a worker disadvantage before switching to serfdom. Maybe it makes a lot more sense if you're spiritual.

You're not at a worker disadvantage... you build or capture as many workers as you need pre-Serfdom. After that, you're able to build or capture more cities without adding more workers, is the thing.

Good point about added benefit, but that just means as the game goes on the benefit becomes somewhat less valuable. I too would suspect it's additive but do not know for sure. I would want to check before we say this is a firm conclusion.

[wodan11]

this is the way i do it:

one worker per city, thats a pretty standard rule.

if i get pyramids, try to change to rep while switching to org relig

once you get feudalism, switch to vassalage and serfdom

once you get banking only switch to merc. if everyone else is and there is no possible trading with other AI's (for me i go for astronomy pretty early so once i get merc. some games i never switch to it since the economic boost of trading far outweighs merc.)

once you get economics and liberalism, switch to free market and free speech at same time.

only switch to emancipation if you must. (for obviously unhappiness reasons if alot of other AI's have it and you dont)

once you have steam power and assembly line, switch to emancipation and free religion.

then after that you should be able to get the jesus wonder and switch however you like if you are not spiritual, being spiritual does have its benefits but they are situational and other traits are more desirable. this is usually how i like to go about doing it, just me.

Said it before, I'll say it again, I would go nuts if I played the same game strategy every game. No offense Brandon.

[brandonjm8]

You mean by spreading many religions, you are able to build many temples, enabling you to run many priests in all your cities?

So it's not anything special about many religions... you could simply run Caste System, for example.

with CS you dont get unlimited priests, with angkor wat, priests produce +2 hammers/+1 gold/+3 beakers w/ rep gov't not to mention all the GP i get doing this. if i average 5 priests per city thats +10 hammers and +5 gold, not only adding to my gold to keep science high while having rep gov't my production enables me to build units/buildings fast. with CS your production wont be as good unless you build alot of workshops thus taking farmland/cottages away along with those extra commerce and specialists not to mention GP rate. CS would be good if you have no religion or just one, otherwise with rep and temples ect it far outweighs CS in my case, just me.

[brandonjm8]

Said it before, I'll say it again, I would go nuts if I played the same game strategy every game. No offense Brandon.

i said thats how i like to do it (this isnt a perfect world, even on our games ). every games different, for example im running merc and i dont like to. situations and strategies change but having a plan isnt boring for me, if it works why change? its not boring for me. whats boring for you is fun for me and whats fun for you might be boring for me .

[brandonjm8]

Two comments here I guess.

I definitely don't agree that "there are better alternatives". Maybe if you could suggest one, I can poke holes in your suggestion.

I was using two cities for the example. The library allows two, the observatory allows two. That's four per city, with two cities that's eight.

You said "each capable of running 8 specialists" (emphasis added)

If you meant 4, then I think that's probably not enough. Generally a SE can support many more specialists. So either you have to run CS or you have to mix up types.

Essentially, it's taking city specialization to another level. Rather than build say a market, library, grocer, and observatory in two cities, if you're running CS you can instead build a market/grocer in one city, a library/observatory in the other city, run the same number of specialists, and get the same benefit with less infrastructure needed.

I agree with your goal and yes, that's a benefit of Caste System. However, in practice it's not as clean as all that. Often, you have built Libraries in all cities before CS is available. And often you build a Grocer for the health, not because you're running merchants.

In general, the analog CE builds everything, so this "mixed SE" is comparable. The CS SE has this as an added benefit and stands apart in this respect. It does have negatives however.

The same concept can apply to having markets/libraries only. Rather than having to build a market and library in each city to run mixed specialists, by running CS you can make less buildings while getting the same benefit. It's what, 720? hammers (270 library 450 market) saved on marathon. That 720 hammers per two cities translates into 8 90 hammer units (axemen for example).

Axemen are a poor example because they would certainly be obsolete if you have Observatories and Grocers.

If you were running 6 specialist cities that's another 24 units. That's a moderate sized stack of units from CS. Overall I don't think it leaves you that far behind slavery while having other benefits. It just depends on if you want another x% production or x% to your economy.

Agreed, with the above caveats.

No question on the micro. I didn't say it's something I would do. I don't like micro that much unless it's a tiny map. However, to the best of my knowledge, that 50% speed increase is additive. Steam power adds 50% to the speed meaning workers are going at 150% already. Adding another 50% makes it 200%. That's only a 33% overall increase which means it's not 20 vs 40 workers, it's 30 vs 40 workers. Since workers are 120 hammers each (marathon speed), can you say 10 workers (1200 hammers) are worth that anarchy? Your empire probably loses more than 1200 just in the switch, to say nothing of the research and coin loss. There's also the fact that the strategy means you're at a worker disadvantage before switching to serfdom. Maybe it makes a lot more sense if you're spiritual.

You're not at a worker disadvantage... you build or capture as many workers as you need pre-Serfdom. After that, you're able to build or capture more cities without adding more workers, is the thing.

Good point about added benefit, but that just means as the game goes on the benefit becomes somewhat less valuable. I too would suspect it's additive but do not know for sure. I would want to check before we say this is a firm conclusion.

well basically, ive ran a darn good CE before but prefer SE whenever possible. my CE got to almost 5000 beakers late game before but my production and GP rate were not good, had to hurry everything unless i wanted to wait 20+ turns for all buildings basically and 10+ turns on most units. if you are good at SE or my hybrid style, not only have i gotten to 5000 beakers before on a SE but my production has never been better. i had 50 cities and AT LEAST 20 cities had 100 hammers/turn production. i made a modern army of infantry and tanks (bout 30 infantry and 15 tanks) in less than 10 turns along with some fighters and bombers and navy. before biology a well developed CE is better but after biology SE is by far the best with rep gov't, great gold output/great beakers/great production/great GP rate, how can you beat that? remember mid-late game your capacity for engineers goes up from 1 to 5 then with railroads adding to your hammers and levees and factories and all that stuff. i guess in my conclusion, the best all-around way is the specialists way but CE has its advantages mainly early game, just my opinion.

[wodan11]

before biology a well developed CE is better but after biology SE is by far the best with rep gov't, great gold output/great beakers/great production/great GP rate, how can you beat that?

1) You're not talking about all types of SE, you're talking about your priest/Angkor SE
2) Your strategy has negatives. e.g., you have to get a specific Wonder, you have to spam missionaries (which cost hammers), you have to spam temples (which cost hammers), your gold income isn't as high as other strategies, your science isn't as high as other strategies, your cities aren't specialized (which costs hammers). So, how can we beat that? Do a strategy which doesn't cost so many hammers, has higher science, has higher gold, etc.

CE has its advantages mainly early game, just my opinion.

Upon what do you base this opinion? Frankly I think it's the other way around.

[wodan11]

i said thats how i like to do it (this isnt a perfect world, even on our games ). every games different, for example im running merc and i dont like to. situations and strategies change but having a plan isnt boring for me, if it works why change? its not boring for me. whats boring for you is fun for me and whats fun for you might be boring for me .

I wasn't criticizing. But I think you'll change your tune after you've played it for > 100 games.

[rah]

He played over 500 games of CivII SP. I think his threshold for boredom is quite high.

[brandonjm8]

He played over 500 games of CivII SP. I think his threshold for boredom is quite high.

i dont remember the actual # of games for civ2 but i did play it for years, didnt have a computer for civ3 in them days. when i get bored i switch it up or lay off the game for awhile, ive done it with civ4 a few times, take a week or month off kinda thing then start playing again once im interested again, im sure we all have done this at one time or another.

[brandonjm8]

1) You're not talking about all types of SE, you're talking about your priest/Angkor SE
2) Your strategy has negatives. e.g., you have to get a specific Wonder, you have to spam missionaries (which cost hammers), you have to spam temples (which cost hammers), your gold income isn't as high as other strategies, your science isn't as high as other strategies, your cities aren't specialized (which costs hammers). So, how can we beat that? Do a strategy which doesn't cost so many hammers, has higher science, has higher gold, etc.

ive done SE's w/o angkor wat, i dont always get AW . ive done it w/o AW, ive done it specializing on alotta scientists and others merchants, ive done it alotta times. ive done more SE's then CE's now ive gotten good and peaking with it kinda thing, only getting better. my only weak part of my game that i can see is my use of slavery, i can see using it when your cities are small but i guess im used to civ2 and like seeing my cities grow constantly, im sure i will do alot more whip'in on higher levels that im sure of. as far as gold/turn you can take a look at my jap game, im running 100% science making 200 gold/turn with 2700 beakers and that with only having 30% of my cities with univ/obv/mark/groc/banks! and not one of those cities are building research/wealth. ive had games where i was able to stack my holy cities, had 3 of them in one city, before corps i was pumping close to 1000 gold/turn at like 20% gold. if some AI's on my maps didnt switch to theocracy all the time i could see getting 2-3k gold/turn easily then even more with corps. as far as missionaires go i have usually just one or two cities pumping them out throughout taking small breaks for buildings/units, its worth it, if you have 3 religions and +30 cities with all religions spreaded thats alotta gold/turn. as far as science goes, with biology and 30+ cities having 5000+ beakers/turn is common occurrence for me. i avg between 3-5k beakers in my games. im sure my avg will go down on higher levels or take longer to get there but thats fine, just make me better. and with my production, hammers are of little concern, to and for me they are worth it especially domination time amassing huge armies and getting alotta GG's and warlords and high exp'd units ect. i specialize all the time just not every city all the time, but when crunch time does come almost every city can make strong units quickly w/o whip'in or hurrying. im not telling people how to play or that hybrid style is the best, im just sharing my POV's and exp's.

Upon what do you base this opinion? Frankly I think it's the other way around.

ever had a city with 12 priests and 4 scientists and 4 merchants? ever had size 38 cities? do you know how productive huge cities are with "fat crosses"? biology is killer if you planned for huge cities like i do, i usually get at least a couple 30+ cities if not more. my biggest was a 39 for civ4, 42 size for civ2 like 30+ million people .