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The failure rate increases for each individual city as more religions are added, I believe for no existing religions in a city, the missionary is always successful, maybe. about 5 religions in a city, it drops to about half a chance of failure when you try to spread an extra religion. There maybe someone around on the site who knows the exact figfure, I do not. The odds of success probably do not vary if auto settings are used, so i see no benefit in trusting actions to the computer in any way.
Yeah, I tried doing it with a bunch, and discovered that they just auto-pick a city and try to spread their religion, just like they would if you controlled them. For some reason I had the idea they would somehow cause religion to flow around like butter on a pancake, and slowly cities would get religion, just a bit faster than if no missionaries at all were sent out.
But instead I got messages saying some missionary had been unsuccessful in spreading their religion, and it used up the missionary.
I wonder if there's some way to just increase the natural spread of religions...
Any man can be a Father, but it takes someone special to be a BEAST
I was just about to point out that Horsie is simply making excuses in advance for why he will suck at Civ III...
...but Father Beast beat me to it! - Randomturn
The shrine and cathedral equivalent bot spread the religion w/o missionaries.
No matter where you go, there you are. - Buckaroo Banzai
"I played it [Civilization] for three months and then realised I hadn't done any work. In the end, I had to delete all the saved files and smash the CD." Iain Banks, author
Will those two spread to cities where a religion exists or just in those that don't have any?
It's almost as if all his overconfident, absolutist assertions were spoonfed to him by a trusted website or subreddit. Sheeple
RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O
Only empty of religion AND connected to the spreading city by river or road.
No matter where you go, there you are. - Buckaroo Banzai
"I played it [Civilization] for three months and then realised I hadn't done any work. In the end, I had to delete all the saved files and smash the CD." Iain Banks, author
Thx, that's what I thought. (or sea if you have sailing right)
It's almost as if all his overconfident, absolutist assertions were spoonfed to him by a trusted website or subreddit. Sheeple
RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O
Autospread needs a possible trade route (roads + Wheel, river/coast + Sailing, ocean + Astro), but no OB. It's also more probable the closer to the holy city you are. Shrine doubles the spread chance but I'm pretty sure cathedrals have no effect.
After all working one irrigated corn (size 1) is as good as working 4 unimproved tiles (size 4).
Yeah, well, getting an irrigable corn tile AND a viable start (not one where I'm 10 tiles away from Shaka's for instance) doesn't happen too often on Immortal. In my the last attempt said Shaka came at me in about 1500 BC with a stack of 6 offensive units - swordsmen, axemen, impi, all with 3 promotions. Needless to say my capital was protected by an archer and 2 warriors and I was building my first axeman ...
Worker techs > everything. Unimproved tiles < everything. Better take care to not get boxed in below 7-8 cities.
As I said in earlier posts I have no hardship winning while staying most of the game at 5 cities and expanding beyond that only after, say, Rifling. I won with Elizabeth and Hannibal and a Chines guy (can't remember his name) while staying small.
Never understood the point behind founding early religions - if there's an AI religion on your landmass it will spread a lot faster than your own (meaning you can't adopt your own religion), and if you really want a shrine you can often bulb Taoism (or Oracle CoL at Emperor);
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But what about 2 shrines and a Corpo in the Wall Street City ? Now THAT means big bucks flowing in even at 100% science
at that time your empire will even have the hammers to actually build missionaries. Founding a bajillion religions doesn't help much early, since you can't spread them that much anyway. Later they can even become a burden because you avoid SciMethod. This leaves just the culture benefit, which is offset by the fact that your expansion is delayed so much.
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Your comments are also probably biased by the map types you play - I tend to play Continents or Fractal or Hemispheres where there's often NO other mysti-starting AI on my landmass (if there is one at all). Besides, religions DO spread a lot WITHOUT missionaries, take my word for it : about 4 out of my 6 first cities get my main religion for free. And when you meet AIs that love religions (Hannibal and Wong Kon, the Korean guy for instance) they will spread YOUR religion to all their cities gladly. Now THAT gives a big boost to the income ! I also sometimes meet guys that simply got NO religion. In my last game as Julius Caesar I started alone and managed to be first to Optics. This allowed me to go and meet Abe Lincoln, Cyrus and Saladdin (last one spawned by Cyrus) which where huddled together on two close-by big islands wuth NO religion at all. I gave them all my Taoism and, lo and behold, they adopted it as their state religion and began spreading it to their cities ! How cool is that ? We became friends and money started pouring into my coffers !
I used to avoid SciMethod too and overlike founding religions, but have come to realize that nine times out of ten they have no other purpose than diplo..
Yeah, well, getting an irrigable corn tile AND a viable start (not one where I'm 10 tiles away from Shaka's for instance) doesn't happen too often on Immortal. In my the last attempt said Shaka came at me in about 1500 BC with a stack of 6 offensive units - swordsmen, axemen, impi, all with 3 promotions. Needless to say my capital was protected by an archer and 2 warriors and I was building my first axeman ...
Well the irrigated Corn was just an example. Every start is virtually guaranteed to have at least a 5 (hammer+food) tile, which would be equal to working 3 forests. I was pointing out the strength of improved vs unimproved tiles.
I find that the best solution for those 10-tile-Shaka starts is rushing the bastard. Quite hard though if you don't have Horses or Copper in the first 2 cities, or if he has a hard-to-pillage Copper in his BFC. Certainly the worst thing to be doing next door to Shaka is teching Polytheism
As I said in earlier posts I have no hardship winning while staying most of the game at 5 cities and expanding beyond that only after, say, Rifling. I won with Elizabeth and Hannibal and a Chines guy (can't remember his name) while staying small.
Yes, winning in those conditions is quite possible even without being a religious mogul, but that's not a reason to NOT expand if you have the chance. Usually getting those 6th, 7th or 8th cities help out a ton. 6 cities can even be enough to go into space without any warfare. FIN leaders are a poor example as they can always poop beakers out of nothing anyway
I consider 6 as the bare minimum though on the initial expansion (on Standard maps). Delaying Oxford at all just hurts far too much.
But what about 2 shrines and a Corpo in the Wall Street City ? Now THAT means big bucks flowing in even at 100% science
Sure it does, but the game is often decided before such favorable conditions can be achieved. That crazy-ass supergold city is also often a "win-more" asset - if you have time to set it up properly then you would probably have won even without it. The early game is most critical when deciding a win or lose.
Your comments are also probably biased by the map types you play - I tend to play Continents or Fractal or Hemispheres where there's often NO other mysti-starting AI on my landmass (if there is one at all). Besides, religions DO spread a lot WITHOUT missionaries, take my word for it : about 4 out of my 6 first cities get my main religion for free. And when you meet AIs that love religions (Hannibal and Wong Kon, the Korean guy for instance) they will spread YOUR religion to all their cities gladly. Now THAT gives a big boost to the income ! I also sometimes meet guys that simply got NO religion. In my last game as Julius Caesar I started alone and managed to be first to Optics. This allowed me to go and meet Abe Lincoln, Cyrus and Saladdin (last one spawned by Cyrus) which where huddled together on two close-by big islands wuth NO religion at all. I gave them all my Taoism and, lo and behold, they adopted it as their state religion and began spreading it to their cities ! How cool is that ? We became friends and money started pouring into my coffers !
It's just that you never know if you're gonna have a religion on your landmass. If you get the only one, that's great, but if you bust your balls to get one just to have it amount to nothing because an AI is megaspamming other missionaries left and right you lose a lot of the appeal. I do play all map scripts nowadays, and it doesn't really change that much.
Also, I'm pretty sure all Civs spread their state religion to all their cities, not just the "religious" ones, so if you get the first missionary in you're almost guaranteed a fully devout follower. The flipside is that you can never rely on being able to do that.
Well maybe but then I cruise on Emperor and cannot yet cope on Immortal. There's nothing in between.
If you struggle on Immortal you could try playing a couple of Emperor games by trying other stuff - like aiming for 8-10 cities by 1AD while not dying to the economy crash. If you can do that then Immortal should be handleable. You could also try at Immortal what I mentioned at some point, a religious opening with Charlemagne or Justinian going settler as the first build, this doesn't delay the expansion nearly as much (though some luck needed in getting the religion). I've never got it working quite as I'd like but then again you're probably much better with religious tactics than me.
Often I do not found many cities, sometimes only 3, depending on how close AI's are. But the less I found the more swords and axes I build for an early war, so i get the extra cities anyway.
How early do you have to rush at the highest levels and still be victorious most of the time?
How big a stack do you wait for before you GO?
It's almost as if all his overconfident, absolutist assertions were spoonfed to him by a trusted website or subreddit. Sheeple
RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O
How early do you have to rush at the highest levels and still be victorious most of the time?
How big a stack do you wait for before you GO?
On Immortal a usual 2nd city Copper/Horse and ~8 Axes / ~10+ Chariots + reinforcements is usually fast&strong enough. Things like AI position, AI cities on hills or not, the AI in question, AIs tech an AIs resources affect alot whether rushing is viable or not. Things like Sword, Sword&Cat or HA rush are a bit less situational.
On Deity early rushes are very very hard and almost necessitate either a Chariot UU (or Quechuas I guess) or a capital BFC Copper. Even with that you need to go ASAP with something like 1 Woodsman Axe to choke/pillage/prevent workering. Traditional "axe rushes" are a bad idea.
Well the irrigated Corn was just an example. Every start is virtually guaranteed to have at least a 5 (hammer+food) tile, which would be equal to working 3 forests. I was pointing out the strength of improved vs unimproved tiles.
I find that the best solution for those 10-tile-Shaka starts is rushing the bastard. Quite hard though if you don't have Horses or Copper in the first 2 cities, or if he has a hard-to-pillage Copper in his BFC. Certainly the worst thing to be doing next door to Shaka is teching Polytheism
I don't know how to do rushes. When I started playing Civ IV I've naively used old Civ II tactics : expand, expand, expand. Then I noticed it's not that easy : defense was much more difficult and the economy simply didn't add up : with 2 cities I'm producing less beakers than with one city (typically 13 versus 15) because I need to go from 100% to 80%. And this for as long as it takes to build a second worker (the first is improving the capital). That is A LOT of beakers lost (when the second city grows to 2 pop maintenance increases, I have to go down to 70 % and so on). So I ask : why expand ? What's the point if I am to produce less beakers and get double headaches because of defense concerns ?
Usually getting those 6th, 7th or 8th cities help out a ton. 6 cities can even be enough to go into space without any warfare. FIN leaders are a poor example as they can always poop beakers out of nothing anyway
I consider 6 as the bare minimum though on the initial expansion (on Standard maps). Delaying Oxford at all just hurts far too much.
I do expand beyond 5 cities ... when I feel it's time, not before
Sure it does, but the game is often decided before such favorable conditions can be achieved. That crazy-ass supergold city is also often a "win-more" asset - if you have time to set it up properly then you would probably have won even without it. The early game is most critical when deciding a win or lose.
Certainly. Then again, do not forget that I do not play solely for the purpose of winning. Playing is a pleasure in itself, HOW I win matters a lot. If someone tells me "you need to rush in order to win" then I won't be interested in this advice because my dislike for the "build units - wage war" routine is so great not even the victory can compensate for it. I'd rather play builder and lose (which is what I do of late on Immortal
It's just that you never know if you're gonna have a religion on your landmass.
Oh, come on, please ! If you are alone, you positively KNOW you won't have a religion on your landmass unless you found it. If you are on a landmass with Abe and Cyrus you also know that if you want a religion you have to get it yourself because on other landmasses Asoka or Mansa Musa or Isabella or Pacal or who you want will otherwise get them all and you'll struggle
If you get the only one, that's great, but if you bust your balls to get one just to have it amount to nothing because an AI is megaspamming other missionaries left and right you lose a lot of the appeal. I do play all map scripts nowadays, and it doesn't really change that much.
I don't see what you mean by "bust your balls to get one". You either take the path needed to get a religion (mysti-poly-mining-masonry-mono-priesthood-writing+Oracle<Theo / CoL) or you don't. If you don't, you most certainly won't get a religion. (except for maybe bulbing taoism later on)
If you do, then chances are you get at least one. No busted balls. You followed a certain tech path knowing full well what you were doing.
Also, I'm pretty sure all Civs spread their state religion to all their cities, not just the "religious" ones, so if you get the first missionary in you're almost guaranteed a fully devout follower. The flipside is that you can never rely on being able to do that.
Firstly, it's not true. I do regularly find cities where some leaders (Cyrus for instance) were too lazy to spread the state religion. Second, I wasn't talking about state religion. Hannibal and Wong Kon would spread your religion to all their cities even when it's NOT their state religion, even if it's their 4th religion. They can be Buddhist, you spread your Confucianism to one of their cities and soon enough ALL their city have Confucianism as their 2nd or 3rd or 4th religion
If you struggle on Immortal you could try playing a couple of Emperor games by trying other stuff - like aiming for 8-10 cities by 1AD while not dying to the economy crash.
Yes, I should. But how do you do that ? I don't know.
As I said, for me it's simple maths : you expand, you HAVE to bring your science slider down. You are already delayed to Writing because of that. And before writing + library you have no specialists. Also, specialists have to be fed, you need a wet start - lots of food resources. Then before Currency you have NOTHING that can bring money in. NOTHING, except from Great shrines (which you only have if you founded a religion). Where do you get your money from, aside from great shrines ? If I don't have money and I expanded to 8 city I'm at maybe 10% with the science slider and producing maybe 30 beakers /turn mainly from specialists. I can't keep up with the AI with that. The only solution I see is build an army and attack the AI, living from war bounty. I do not care much for this way of playing the game.
If you can do that then Immortal should be handleable. You could also try at Immortal what I mentioned at some point, a religious opening with Charlemagne or Justinian going settler as the first build, this doesn't delay the expansion nearly as much (though some luck needed in getting the religion). I've never got it working quite as I'd like but then again you're probably much better with religious tactics than me.
I am also a religion freak altho I only try for one of my own at some point. I capture a shrine city or two and use my SE strategy to build the prophets if the AI didn't build the shrine. I emphasize culture and cultural buildings thruout the game for all cities whose borders touch those of one or more of the AIs.
As to expansion I tend also to build 5 or so cities and will grab a barb city that's within my range of operations should the opportunity arise. I play Epic large which requires 9 cities to complete the quests. I buildup until, again, an opportunity arises once I have cats and swords, and hopefully elephants. Currency is essential to supporting more than 7 or so cities, so I let the AI build the additional cities for me, then hit them just before they are done, so their defense per city will still be low.
(Other settings vary but are usually fractal, low seas, 2 extra AI civs, raging barbarians and no tech brokering. I have been trying vassals and diplo vict on, but I really think the AP is broken so I think I'll turn that off again. We'll see. Have played only Agg AI, but am tempted to try without based on discussions on this forum.)
Last edited by Blaupanzer; September 22, 2009, 16:09.
No matter where you go, there you are. - Buckaroo Banzai
"I played it [Civilization] for three months and then realised I hadn't done any work. In the end, I had to delete all the saved files and smash the CD." Iain Banks, author
See above : why expand ? what's the point since I'm producing less beakers and I need to look after a second source of worries ?
In the long term having more cities WILL provide much much more beakers. It's only before the infrastructure is up that they cost more than what they are worth.
Certainly. Then again, do not forget that I do not play solely for the purpose of winning. Playing is a pleasure in itself, HOW I win matters a lot. If someone tells me "you need to rush in order to win" then I won't be interested in this advice because my dislike for the "build units - wage war" routine is so great not even the victory can compensate for it. I'd rather play builder and lose (which is what I do of late on Immortal
That I can understand. Playing "Sim Empire" is often very fun and relaxing - my answer was from a "gameplay optimization" perspective, which (I feel) is often necessary at least when moving up a level.
Oh, come on, please ! If you are alone, you positively KNOW you won't have a religion on your landmass unless you found it. If you are on a landmass with Abe and Cyrus you also know that if you want a religion you have to get it yourself because on other landmasses Asoka or Mansa Musa or Isabella or Pacal or who you want will otherwise get them all and you'll struggle
Religion in isolation I definitely don't like - less shrine income and everyone will hate your guts when they meet you for being a heathen, if you don't luck yourself upon paganists like in your previous example
I don't see what you mean by "bust your balls to get one". You either take the path needed to get a religion (mysti-poly-mining-masonry-mono-priesthood-writing+Oracle<Theo / CoL) or you don't. If you don't, you most certainly won't get a religion. (except for maybe bulbing taoism later on)
If you do, then chances are you get at least one. No busted balls. You followed a certain tech path knowing full well what you were doing.
Huh - I'd call such a tech path as ball-busting Such is our difference I guess. Couldn't stand the late expansion due to not having Pottery or BW that long for sure.
Firstly, it's not true. I do regularly find cities where some leaders (Cyrus for instance) were too lazy to spread the state religion. Second, I wasn't talking about state religion. Hannibal and Wong Kon would spread your religion to all their cities even when it's NOT their state religion, even if it's their 4th religion. They can be Buddhist, you spread your Confucianism to one of their cities and soon enough ALL their city have Confucianism as their 2nd or 3rd or 4th religion
That's interesting. I don't think I've ever observed that happening. Not that I have usually cared that much if it's not the AP religion and I don't have the shrine.
As I said, for me it's simple maths : you expand, you HAVE to bring your science slider down. You are already delayed to Writing because of that. And before writing + library you have no specialists. Also, specialists have to be fed, you need a wet start - lots of food resources. Then before Currency you have NOTHING that can bring money in. NOTHING, except from Great shrines (which you only have if you founded a religion). Where do you get your money from, aside from great shrines ? If I don't have money and I expanded to 8 city I'm at maybe 10% with the science slider and producing maybe 30 beakers /turn mainly from specialists. I can't keep up with the AI with that. The only solution I see is build an army and attack the AI, living from war bounty. I do not care much for this way of playing the game.
But if I missed something please tell me.
Yes, it's quite normal to bring the slider down to even 0% as long as you have Pottery and Writing to dig yourself out from it. For the moment you will be technologically behind, but when the vertical growth starts to kick in (about the time when you're whipping Courthouses, or a bit later when most of the land is developed) you will be miles ahead in tech rate for the rest of the game, no question (compared to not expanding much). 30 bpt is more than enough to do this. A usual way to get out is to crawl to Aes, tech 10% of Alpha, trade for Alpha, then trade Aes around for stuff you missed like IW and Math while heading for Currency by building Research (Aes is good because 1. AIs don't prioritize it 2. Even if they do they don't trade it around if they start on any of the wonders). After Currency you can build Wealth ( > Research) while heading towards CoL. An (almost) absolute requirement for this is to not stray to the religious side of the tech tree (Mysti can be taken, if you need to block or have cities with good resources in the 2nd ring and aren't CRE) - otherwise you can't expand fast enough to block AIs and still be able to dig yourself out.
Religion in isolation I definitely don't like - less shrine income and everyone will hate your guts when they meet you for being a heathen, if you don't luck yourself upon paganists like in your previous example
I have no problem with it... I won't go out of my way for it, but sometimes it happens, and it's OK
If you can plan a GP, it's some cheap extra income, and the religion will probably spread on it's own with out forcing the issue. And if you rush to free religion... it's not really much of an issue.
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