The religion game

[Theben]

You just answered your own question.


Although lately I've been using it more, and it DOES work with the Hagia Sophia wonder. Super-fast worker builds can be nice (1 turn roads on Epic). If I don't see any need for infinite specialists, or slaving out stuff, I'll slip into Serfdom.

Btw, I don't think SPI civs get a bonus to build CR.

[rah]

Yeah, what's serfdom? After taking out the last city of a few civs, I usually have way too many workers so am not concerned about how fast they work. I pretend they're like work groups in chicago. I put 3 in each group so I know one is usually just standing around watching the others work.

[slnz]

Btw, I don't think SPI civs get a bonus to build CR.

Don't worry, they get the bonus regardless of whether you think they do or not

For serfdom, well, it's a civic that can be replaced by building a few workers. It doesn't even begin to compare to the unique bonuses the 3 options give. Maybe, just maybe if you have a huge area of jungle and you're SPI it can be useful for a little while between whips.

[Theben]

Basically you'll only need Serfdom if you find yourself with a lot of land needing work and/or short on workers for some reason.

[Ming]

If that's the case, I just build a few more workers. As a civic, it's weak compared to the other choices, and I can't EVER remember using it.

[wodan11]

Another way of looking at it is that Serfdom allows you to build a few LESS workers and get the same things done.

Anybody actually sit and figure out how much making settlers and workers hurts you in the early game?

[Ming]

With the low happiness cap early, and the value you get from extra cities and improvements, it doesn't "hurt" at all. The ability to work more improved squares earlier makes up for any loss.

[Theben]

Slavery can hurt if I get a revolt in 1 of my big cities. As a rule I try to get out of it ASAP and not go back.

Caste System is normally preferable but in those times I don't need more specialists than my buildings allow, am not conquering enemy cities, or don't have workshops, AND need to chop down a lot of jungle or similar, Serfdom is a good bet.

Eventually I'll settle in Emancipation and stay there the rest of the game. That is, unless I decide to go all-out war.

[Ming]

Caste System in combination with early Representation is a killer combo You can get specialists in those cities that are producing military units. Sure, you have real buildings in you key cities, but for those unit crank cities, Caste System is great.

I have no problem with extended slavery. Sure, you get an occasional revolt... but until happiness is no longer an issue, the whip is VERY useful. If you have cities with tons of food and little production, you can just whip those key buildings.

[Theben]

Caste System in combination with early Representation is a killer combo You can get specialists in those cities that are producing military units. Sure, you have real buildings in you key cities, but for those unit crank cities, Caste System is great.

Hmmm, I'll have to think about that one for my MP game. I've got 4 food specials in my cap's BFC and can support a pop 11 with those 4 tiles + city square. With a library and 3 available monasteries that's 7 scientists... 7 * 6 * 1.55= 65 ...

[sorinache]

1. You may be right on higher difficulties. On settler I seem to be doing allright on research, so it's not that big of a deal. The income from a shrine seems to make a lot more difference in early to mid game than 6-8 turns on a tech. in the trading screen, would you give up 15 gold per turn for a tech?.

If I may throw in my 2 cents, I play on Emperor and do most the same thing as Father Beast : found as many religions as I can, build Great Shrines, spread religions, build monasteries (3 - 4 religions means 30-40% more research per city) and delay scientific method until I researched everything that can be researched without (combustion, assembly line, lots of good techs). I disagree with Theben about the "best techs" being on the Sci. Meth path. Sci Meth in itself can be gotten very cheaply from the AI and once I am cornered and have no other choice I usually go and do a big swap acquiring Sci Meth, Physics (which the AI always rushes to because of the GP prize) and sometimes even Biology. I can get all these techs without even needing to share Assembly Line which is arguably THE big swing tech in the game : if I survive to get to it, I'm pretty sure I'll win the game

2. using a great person as a specialist is sort of the booby prize. It's what you do if you've got nothing better to do with them. Except for artists, in which case it's their main use.

Settling Merchants in the Wall Street City is pretty powerful too. They also bring +1 in addition to the money, which means an extra 1/2 pop. Also, if I know I'll be pumping out Great Scientists, settling one in the capital and using the second to build the academy (or the other way around) means the one that's been settled brings +9 beakers + 75% (counting only library, univ and obs, cause laboratory comes too late in the game) + 30 % (average of 3 religions) + 50 % (Academy) + 100 % (Oxford) = 32 beakers (and +2 hammers) per turn. Not something to snub at, IMO.

3. I have never used GPs for golden ages. I guess I'm just not getting the golden age thing yet. I mean I'll build that wonder towards the modern ages and experience it, but I just don't get that excited.

Golden Ages become more interesting the bigger your empire is. My first is usually the one from the Taj (I'm a wonder whore as well and strive to build Mausoleum as well). The second is usually launched using a Great Artist. A third comes as soon as I get 2 more GPs - the closer you are from the end of the game the more interesting this options becomes : the great shrines have already been built, the beakers a GP brings from bulbing are now dwarfed by the production per turn as are the benefits of settling the GPs. Hence towards the end of the game Golden Ages become the best usage for GP in terms of benefit/cost.

OK, you got me. I'm a wonder whore. But in reality I miss the monasteries more than I miss the wonder effects. the only wonder effect I was really upset about losing was stonehenge. I was so happy when I switched to BtS and it now expires with astronomy instead of calendar.
Getting a city to have that missing religion so I can build a monastery in it is the problem.



Truly, in late game, happiness is not so much of a problem as health. but religions are almost like a lux resource each, with free religion.

Appreciate your thoughts, you've been playing a lot longer than I have. I'll probably come around with some more experience.

[sorinache]

I never try for the early religions, spending time learning those techs instead of agriculture, animal husbandry, mining, fishing, bronzeworking etc just insures your early city growth and development is stunted as you have nothing for your worker to do and cannot see where horses or bronze are and cannot get rapid city growth through high food production and high hammer production. Those things in the long run are far more important. Capture the holy cities and shrines later. Just about only religion I ever go for is Confucianism as it is on a tech path that gives me useful buldings and civics.

I tend to let my capital grow to at least size 4 before starting to build a worker or settler. While I grow to this size I build warriors and maybe barracks. Then I start with a settler. Then a worker. If you count the number of turns it take to
1. grow to size 4
2. build a settler
3. build a worker
you come to realize that there's plenty of time to research BOTH the religions (I go mysti, poly, mining, masonry, mono) AND the other useful techs : agri or animal husbandry and bronze working. Because researching animal husbandry and bronze working BEFORE you've built your first worker doesn't bring any benefit.

[sorinache]

Bringing news from the edge

Ok, so then I'm a niche player, because what we are talking about here is what I discovered to be the strategy that best suits my playing style.

I've tried various other strategies and frankly I tend to struggle - mostly because of money problems that force me to lower the science slider until I start to slide behind the AI in tech. As I have little fun with the war game aspects and seldom wage war, I do not enjoy the "rah / Ming" option of simply "knocking heads" to get back in the race.

On the other hand, I can report that the "niche strategy" of religions allows me to quite easily and pleasantly win on Emperor level as basically any non-combat oriented leader (I haven't tried playing as Shaka or Monty yet, although I faced them very often, to their despair ).

Even when not starting with Mysti, I still go this path with success and to much personal satisfaction. Yes, I will get neither Buddhism nor Hindu but if I soldier on I'm usually able to be first to Monotheism. I then use Oracle for Theo and try to get Divine Right if possible (without prioritizing though). On average, I manage to found 2 - 3 religions. I use the first Great Priest to build Temple of Solomon or Basilica and thereafter I'm on easy street.

I build missionaries with middle priority - you seem not to realize just how much easier the game is when you play a friendly game : all those military units that cost money to upkeep and become quickly obsolete and then cost more money to upgrade become unnecessary. I build useful buildings and in the meantime I slip one or two missionaries in the build queues.

Later on, Sci Meth is indeed my bane : I'll postpone getting it as much as I can : the +30% science (from 3 monasteries per city) that I stand to lose have NO counterparty before I'm sure I can rapidly get Biology. Usually by the time I exhausted the non-Sci Meth research path all the AIs have it and the "price" to pay for it is very low. As I said in a previous post, when there's no choice left, I hold my nose and go for a big bargain : I give more or less useless things such as Military Science / Tradition, Democracy and Fascism (which strangely enough the IA ignores, so I get the GG from it) and maybe Steam Power in exchange for Sci Meth and Physics - and sometimes Biology at the same time. I see no reason to research these myself if I can get them on the cheap from the AI.

After that I usually manage to be first to Electricity and build Broadway. The game becomes a pleasure drive, I am so relieved I can even start thinking about playing war on a baddie or two.

To sum it up : playing as Father Beast now plays on Settler is absolutely viable up to Emperor level at least. I haven't managed Immortal yet, despite a couple of tries.

That pretty much sums it up.

Though, a heavy priest / religion strat game has its place. Though I'd say it's more of an advanced or niche strategy than anything. In most games by far, religion should be a tool to advance your diplomacy, and that's about it.

I read the recent monastery discussion with some interest. The talks about putting of SciMeth point out the insidious diversion that is religion. Okay, monasteries give bonus to research. But I'm going to put off my top priority tech to keep that bonus? How's that again?

Ok, I can research other, 2nd or 3rd priority techs. Fine. But, instead, I could wait on them and research them when I get the bonus for other civs knowing them (which by the way accumulates to MUCH more than 10%).

And, I have to spend extremely valuable hammers in my cottage/research specialty cities to make those monastries.

In other words, like I said, it's an insidious diversion. Sure, you could do it, but in general it wasn't worth your while.

(Except perhaps when combined with a heavy AP strategy, perhaps with Sistine or other tweaks.)

Pretty much all aspects of religion fall into the same kind of analysis. Yes, you can do some powerful things with it, but it's more of a niche thing than any mainline strategy.

All IMO, YMMV

[slnz]

I tend to let my capital grow to at least size 4 before starting to build a worker or settler. While I grow to this size I build warriors and maybe barracks. Then I start with a settler. Then a worker. If you count the number of turns it take to
1. grow to size 4
2. build a settler
3. build a worker
you come to realize that there's plenty of time to research BOTH the religions (I go mysti, poly, mining, masonry, mono) AND the other useful techs : agri or animal husbandry and bronze working. Because researching animal husbandry and bronze working BEFORE you've built your first worker doesn't bring any benefit.

This delays your expansion by a lot. After all working one irrigated corn (size 1) is as good as working 4 unimproved tiles (size 4). Worker techs > everything. Unimproved tiles < everything. Better take care to not get boxed in below 7-8 cities.

Never understood the point behind founding early religions - if there's an AI religion on your landmass it will spread a lot faster than your own (meaning you can't adopt your own religion), and if you really want a shrine you can often bulb Taoism (or Oracle CoL at Emperor); at that time your empire will even have the hammers to actually build missionaries. Founding a bajillion religions doesn't help much early, since you can't spread them that much anyway. Later they can even become a burden because you avoid SciMethod. This leaves just the culture benefit, which is offset by the fact that your expansion is delayed so much.

I used to avoid SciMethod too and overlike founding religions, but have come to realize that nine times out of ten they have no other purpose than diplo.

EDIT: If you delay SciMethod as much as you can and still are able to build Broadway, that would indicate you're playing a difficulty too low.

[slnz]

If you are struggling on Immortal religious openings but want to try one, have you tried what (I think) I mentioned earlier; Settler first with Holy Rome or Byzantium while getting Polytheism? Preferred start would be something like settling on plains hill with a river plains Fur to work, but a normal forest plains hill can work as well with a tiny bit of luck.

This doesn't delay expansion nearly as much, and actually isn't much alike the strategy you mentioned, except that you have 2 cities instead of 1 when the workers start popping