The religion game

[Father Beast]

I've been going in big for religion in my past few games.

I try to be the first for most religions, and be the founder. I always miss out on either hindu or buddha, and maybe another, even on settler.

Then as the great prophets come around, the holy shrines start popping up, and -really- what else are great prophets good for? With the shrines come all this income which relieves a lot of money problems.

I stick with organized religion for most of the game, but still spread all those other religions. a monastery or 3 can get a new city pumping out a lot of culture in a little time. If I got stonehenge, a monastery is the first thing to go up in new cities, at least until theatres. If I take a city, missionaries and monasteries get it converted to my people in record time. That's why I put off scientific method as long as I can.

Once I switch to free religion, I get the happiness boost of having 6 religions in every city ( yup, missed that one religion, which never spread to me in time for me to build a monastery). If I ever get that missing religion, it's too much trouble to switch to free religion long enough to spread it all the way around.

It's almost like a mini game within the game....

[Theben]

Then as the great prophets come around, the holy shrines start popping up, and -really- what else are great prophets good for?

1. Lightbulbing certain techs, such as Theology, Code of Laws, Civil Service, and Divine Right. This can give you a boost on tech vs the AI or good techs to trade.

2. Settling in a city for +2 and +5 . Also +3 if using Representation civic.

3. Golden Ages.

If I take a city, missionaries and monasteries get it converted to my people in record time. That's why I put off scientific method as long as I can.

I used to do this, and if you wonder-whore losing all those wonders, in addition to monasteries, can tempt you to hold off on getting Sci Meth. But all the really good tech is after it so best to hold your nose and jump in. Just make sure you have at least 1 city that can build missionaries of each religion before you do so.

Once I switch to free religion, I get the happiness boost of having 6 religions in every city

Or you can get 1 more luxury resource which will have the same effect as spreading a religion to ALL your cities. Try to get as many resources early game as possible before the land gets filled up. With enough luxuries happiness shouldn't be a problem.

But in the end it's your game so do what you enjoy.

[Father Beast]

1. Lightbulbing certain techs, such as Theology, Code of Laws, Civil Service, and Divine Right. This can give you a boost on tech vs the AI or good techs to trade.

2. Settling in a city for +2 and +5 . Also +3 if using Representation civic.

3. Golden Ages.

1. You may be right on higher difficulties. On settler I seem to be doing allright on research, so it's not that big of a deal. The income from a shrine seems to make a lot more difference in early to mid game than 6-8 turns on a tech. in the trading screen, would you give up 15 gold per turn for a tech?

2. using a great person as a specialist is sort of the booby prize. It's what you do if you've got nothing better to do with them. Except for artists, in which case it's their main use.

3. I have never used GPs for golden ages. I guess I'm just not getting the golden age thing yet. I mean I'll build that wonder towards the modern ages and experience it, but I just don't get that excited.

If I take a city, missionaries and monasteries get it converted to my people in record time. That's why I put off scientific method as long as I can.

I used to do this, and if you wonder-whore losing all those wonders, in addition to monasteries, can tempt you to hold off on getting Sci Meth. But all the really good tech is after it so best to hold your nose and jump in. Just make sure you have at least 1 city that can build missionaries of each religion before you do so.

OK, you got me. I'm a wonder whore. But in reality I miss the monasteries more than I miss the wonder effects. the only wonder effect I was really upset about losing was stonehenge. I was so happy when I switched to BtS and it now expires with astronomy instead of calendar.
Getting a city to have that missing religion so I can build a monastery in it is the problem.

Once I switch to free religion, I get the happiness boost of having 6 religions in every city

Or you can get 1 more luxury resource which will have the same effect as spreading a religion to ALL your cities. Try to get as many resources early game as possible before the land gets filled up. With enough luxuries happiness shouldn't be a problem.

But in the end it's your game so do what you enjoy.

Truly, in late game, happiness is not so much of a problem as health. but religions are almost like a lux resource each, with free religion.

Appreciate your thoughts, you've been playing a lot longer than I have. I'll probably come around with some more experience.

[rah]

At the higher levels, if you don't start with myst, your odds of getting one of the first two is not very good. And unless I can work a square that has a coin, I don't even try for one of them.

[trev]

I never try for the early religions, spending time learning those techs instead of agriculture, animal husbandry, mining, fishing, bronzeworking etc just insures your early city growth and development is stunted as you have nothing for your worker to do and cannot see where horses or bronze are and cannot get rapid city growth through high food production and high hammer production. Those things in the long run are far more important. Capture the holy cities and shrines later. Just about only religion I ever go for is Confucianism as it is on a tech path that gives me useful buldings and civics.

[Blaupanzer]

Trev or any who know, for we who use "choose religions," which tech yields Confucianism?

Religion is a game within the culture part of the game. Other games are financial, diplomatic, military, and scientific. All are based on development and ultimately compete with one another. As Wodan11 loves to remind us, anything not ultimately enhancing scientific development (beakers) or military forces needs to be justified very carefully. If you are the one spreading these religions to your cities with missionaries that is a lot of soldiers that did not get built, and a lot of necessary buildings that got delayed.

[Ming]

Yep... at the higher levels, and playing aggressive AI, while you are building missionaries, the AI is building a SOD that will probably come your way.

I'm more like Trev... let the AI found the religions... let them spread it... and build an army instead and then go take the holy city

[wodan11]

Wodan11 loves to remind us, anything not ultimately enhancing scientific development (beakers) or military forces needs to be justified very carefully.

That pretty much sums it up.

Though, a heavy priest / religion strat game has its place. Though I'd say it's more of an advanced or niche strategy than anything. In most games by far, religion should be a tool to advance your diplomacy, and that's about it.

I read the recent monastery discussion with some interest. The talks about putting of SciMeth point out the insidious diversion that is religion. Okay, monasteries give bonus to research. But I'm going to put off my top priority tech to keep that bonus? How's that again?

Ok, I can research other, 2nd or 3rd priority techs. Fine. But, instead, I could wait on them and research them when I get the bonus for other civs knowing them (which by the way accumulates to MUCH more than 10%).

And, I have to spend extremely valuable hammers in my cottage/research specialty cities to make those monastries.

In other words, like I said, it's an insidious diversion. Sure, you could do it, but in general it wasn't worth your while.

(Except perhaps when combined with a heavy AP strategy, perhaps with Sistine or other tweaks.)

Pretty much all aspects of religion fall into the same kind of analysis. Yes, you can do some powerful things with it, but it's more of a niche thing than any mainline strategy.

All IMO, YMMV

[rah]

Especially with the first two. You know it's their cap. IF they're near by, as soon as I see the shrine built message it's time for some head knocking.

I do really appreciate the look in city before raze so I don't raze the jewish holy city by accident. It's harder to screw that up now.

[Blaupanzer]

Or the obscure city with the Sistine Chapel. Your first clue used to be "The Sistene Chapel has been destroyed." Woe is me.

[rah]

Zooming in on the city and trying to identify all the structures was not the most effective way to see what was in the city.

[duke o' york]

But the list of wonders ought to give you some general idea of where the SC is....

[rah]

FOG OF WAR.

[Boracks]

Trev or any who know, for we who use "choose religions," which tech yields Confucianism?

CoL, gives you courthouses, the real benefit of that tech.

[slnz]

I read the recent monastery discussion with some interest. The talks about putting of SciMeth point out the insidious diversion that is religion. Okay, monasteries give bonus to research. But I'm going to put off my top priority tech to keep that bonus? How's that again?

Ok, I can research other, 2nd or 3rd priority techs. Fine. But, instead, I could wait on them and research them when I get the bonus for other civs knowing them (which by the way accumulates to MUCH more than 10%).

Putting off SciMethod for a long, long time is very viable in many situations. You can still fight with Inf/Cannon/MCG. AIs prioritize SciMethod very early and get those free GPs from Communism and Physics if you don't bust your balls to get them. And researching the tech itself has dropped my beaker rate by 30% in extreme cases; usually due to losing UoS-powered Monasteries and TGL. Losing the AP-hammers from Monasteries hurt as well.

What you (immediately) gain is access to situational techs that can be totally skipped in many games. Granted, if my improvements are over 50% farms then obviously I'm going to beeline Biology, ditto for Communism if I'm spread out over multiple landmasses.

I agree that one of the reasons that going for a heavily religion-based strategy is bad is that SciMethod totally wrecks you, but that doesn't mean it's always a good tech to prioritize.

Also agree 100% about religions being a niche strategy, especially founding your own religions. Founding an early one delays worker techs and expansion insanely much (except going settler first with Justinian or Charlemagne, this can work sometimes) and you can never spread your religion better than the AIs if there's another religion on your landmass. Missionaries are also an endless hammer sink.