Very disappointed

[Alinestra Covelia]

One of Marx's errors was not to take advantage of religion. He realized what it was and how powerful it could be but then blinded himself to using it. Think how much more powerful Communism would have been if it had a religion supporting it, one who's beliefs went hand in hand.

Good point. Arguably, the current Chinese leadership is experiencing the same problem. Think of the untold millions upon millions of Falun Gong worshippers they could have co-opted if they'd included them instead of persecuting them.

[ColdWizard]

"A religion is an organized approach to human spirituality which usually encompasses a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices, often with a supernatural or transcendent quality, that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power, God or gods, or ultimate truth."

Sorry, but Communism does not fit into that definiton at all. Communism tried to abolish the ties to a "higher power, God or gods, or ultimate truth" and force people to respond only to the state. It doesn't resemble a religion in any way.

Sure it does. The State is the higher power and the Communist Party is the church. The practitioners' ultimate purpose is to serve the State by following the beliefs and practices of the Party.

[CEO Aaron]

Marx's opposition to religion was that he correctly recognized it as the framework of justification supporting class differences, in particular the existence and privilege of the aristocracy. However, it's unfair to lay the horrors of Communism at Marx and Engels' door.

Sorry, but Communism does not fit into that definiton at all

Sure it does.

Well, I think it's fair to say that Communism is ANOTHER set of false assumption about the way the world works, in particular, false assumptions about human nature, and how to make a prosperous, just and peaceful society. Does that make Communism a religion? Not really? It just makes it another pile of logically flawed BS used to justify curtailing the lives and liberty of others.

[Felch]

"A religion is an organized approach to human spirituality which usually encompasses a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices, often with a supernatural or transcendent quality, that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power, God or gods, or ultimate truth."

Sorry, but Communism does not fit into that definiton at all. Communism tried to abolish the ties to a "higher power, God or gods, or ultimate truth" and force people to respond only to the state. It doesn't resemble a religion in any way.

Emphasis mine. Obviously.

Communism fits the definition. It is an organized approach to human spirituality that gives meaning to the practitioner's life through reference to an ultimate truth. It's an atheist religion, in the it reject a theos and instead promises paradise on Earth as a result of inevitable social development. But it still fulfills the same role in a person's life that a religion does.

A person should not believe in an "ism", he should believe in himself.

Thank you, Feris.

[Willem]

Water particles are in the atmosphere. Therefore, I cannot breathe and will drown.

Why do you keep coming up with these totally irrelevant examples? The simple fact is that Marxist Communism does not accept religion and has made numerous efforts to stamp out a belief in a higher being/power. That equates to an Atheisitic approach to society.

[Willem]

Emphasis mine. Obviously.

Communism fits the definition. It is an organized approach to human spirituality that gives meaning to the practitioner's life through reference to an ultimate truth. It's an atheist religion, in the it reject a theos and instead promises paradise on Earth as a result of inevitable social development. But it still fulfills the same role in a person's life that a religion does.

Communism has absolutely nothing to do with spirituality. It is a form of social structuring, nothing more. It doesn't even come close to fulfilling a person's spiritual needs and only forms a basis for organizing a society. Within that system, it is up to the individual to satisfy his/her own sense of truth and provides no mechanism in order to accomplish that goal.

[Theben]

[Willem]

So I guess that means you've run out of relevant arguments and have to resort to an attempt to ridicule?

[TriMiro]

Communism has absolutely nothing to do with spirituality. It is a form of social structuring, nothing more. It doesn't even come close to fulfilling a person's spiritual needs and only forms a basis for organizing a society. Within that system, it is up to the individual to satisfy his/her own sense of truth and provides no mechanism in order to accomplish that goal.

Communism rejects the "spiritual" as in "supernatural" or "spirit" or "soul" and hence all the spiritual needs of the people were satisfied.

You guys argue about religion, but what is religion and what is a philosophical teaching. Communists (as well as some Christian sects long before communism) say that we can completely learn and understand the world around us. The difference was that the communists do not believe in an "ultimate superpower God". Is that Atheism or different religion. I guess Buddhism comes close to "there is no God", but is that Atheism?

[Theben]

So I guess that means you've run out of relevant arguments and have to resort to an attempt to ridicule?

It is humorous that someone who utilized 'totally irrelevant examples' would then accuse me of using them when I try to point out what they're doing by a demonstration.

My concern is that, while I agree (and have not disagreed) that atheists can be monstrous persons, *Atheism* itself hasn't been used to persecute anyone beyond personal quarrels.

You feel otherwise, and cite various Marxist regimes and their persecution of religions as proof.

When I note that atheism isn't communism itself, you at 1st agree, then insist that atheism is so much a part of communism that it is like "baptism is... part of Christianity" and responsible for those persecutions done under those regimes. That's when I threw in the 'water' comment as your 'baptism' comment doesn't make any sense. FWIW, baptism didn't start the Crusades, or burn witches, persecute Jews, or anything else Christianity did, good or bad. But I digress.

There are examples out there of non-Marxist governments persecuting religions, religious people aiding Marxist movements, and Marxist movements debating how to co-opt religions to aid their causes. Therefore it's just as plausible, even more so IMO, that those empires were run by evil men who saw religion as interfering with their rule, in addition to any ideological underpinnings of communism.

Burden of proof is on you.

[Willem]

I guess Buddhism comes close to "there is no God", but is that Atheism?

Buddhists don't say that there isn't a God. They just believe that faith in a supreme being is irrelevant in order to obtain enlightment.

[Willem]

When I note that atheism isn't communism itself, you at 1st agree, then insist that atheism is so much a part of communism that it is like "baptism is... part of Christianity" and responsible for those persecutions done under those regimes.

You on the other hand are trying to insist that Communism has nothing to do with Atheism and is in fact it's own religion. It's nothing of the sort. It's merely a socio-economic system that has nothing whatsoever to do with spirituality.

[Theben]

You on the other hand are trying to insist that Communism has nothing to do with Atheism

no

and is in fact it's own religion. It's nothing of the sort.

Yeah, I know. I didn't mean it literally. But it certainly has all the trappings.

[Willem]

But it certainly has all the trappings.

Not even close. It's nothing more than a political system and has never attempted to replace the rituals/ceremonies and philosophies of the church with it's own. Being a member of the Communist Party has much more in common with being a member of the Republican Party than it does with being a member of the Roman Catholic church. And BTW, I admit the baptism thing was a poor analogy but I couldn't come up anything better at the time.

[Fistleaf]

Has anybody noticed that the OP is not replying to this post anymore? Probably too busy gathering followers for his Church of Atheism.