Very disappointed

[Willem]

He'll tell you that's different, that the Soviet Union wasn't killing them because it was atheist, but because it was a totalitarian dictatorship. And he's right.

Only partially. The bottom line was that the Soviets were trying to stamp out religion in any form, and they used brutal methods in order to accomplish their goal. Even the Chinese Communists have persecuted religious believers. Atheism is a Marxist tenet and some regimes have used drastic measures to bring about the end of religion within their societies. Persecution is nothing unique to religion, it's been used in all forms of societies.

[Felch]

They were trying to stamp out religion because it's a competing loyalty, and totalitarian states can't harbor rivals. When an external threat was posed, Stalin was quick to use the Russian Orthodox Church as a propaganda tool. It's not atheism that caused the slaughter of religious people. Atheism is not inherently brutal and violent. It's Stalinist totalitarianism that is murderous, and it is murderous because it looks for an expedient solution.

The situation is more complicated than "atheism inspires mass murder of the religious." It's the exact same as blaming religion for religious wars. You've got a public excuse (we have to stamp out the retrograde and counter-revolutionary religions) and you've got an actual reason (they are an internal threat to my power). Any internal threat would be destroyed in the Soviet Union, except when it was necessary to keep them around like during the war.

Religion has very little to do with most wars of religion. Calling your war a Crusade or Jihad is just a propaganda tool. In every case it has been a tool to galvanize the population and justify slaughter. But if it weren't religion it would surely be something else. WWI was one of the most brutal wars in human history, and the vast majority of the combatants were co-religionists. Did that keep people from claiming that God was on their side? No. But that's because religion was just another tool in total war.

I know it's kind of rambling, and it's too late for me to bother editing it. The gist is though that we should try to look a little bit deeper than the claims people make about why they kill. Many people kill for a rational reason, and use irrational reasons as cover.

[Willem]

They were trying to stamp out religion because it's a competing loyalty, and totalitarian states can't harbor rivals.

It was more than that. As I mentioned, Atheism is a main tenet of Marxism. Karl Marx himself called religion "the opiate of the people". Religion has no place in a true Marxist society, and that philosophy has been followed by almost every regime based on that system that has existed. The Soviets took it to extremes mind you, but the attempt to stamp out religion has been a common pursuit of all Marxist governments, sometimes using brutal methods. Even today the Chinese are persecuting the Tibetan Buddhists and the Falun Gong sect.

[Theben]

If you think that Athiests aren't capable of atrocities just as much as believers, then you have a very simplistic view of the world.

The point is no one is committing atrocities justified by *Atheism*, while the same cannot be said of most if not all religions.

[Felch]

All right, Theben and Willem need to be locked in a steel cage. The cage will be unlocked when only one is left standing.

Go for it, guys.

[rah]

It was more than that. As I mentioned, Atheism is a main tenet of Marxism. Karl Marx himself called religion "the opiate of the people". Religion has no place in a true Marxist society, and that philosophy has been followed by almost every regime based on that system that has existed. The Soviets took it to extremes mind you, but the attempt to stamp out religion has been a common pursuit of all Marxist governments, sometimes using brutal methods. Even today the Chinese are persecuting the Tibetan Buddhists and the Falun Gong sect.

One of Marx's errors was not to take advantage of religion. He realized what it was and how powerful it could be but then blinded himself to using it. Think how much more powerful Communism would have been if it had a religion supporting it, one who's beliefs went hand in hand.

[Willem]

The point is no one is committing atrocities justified by *Atheism*...

The Soviets did just that, thousands died simply for wanting to practice their religion. The program wasn't conducted under the banner of Atheism as such, but rather under the general banner of a Marxist state, but that doesn't mean that Atheism itself wasn't responsible for the atrocities. And the same is also true in other Marxist regimes, like China. Cambodia under Pol Pot was exceptionally brutal to any supporters of a religion, though his was a rather twisted view of Marxism.

[Willem]

Think how much more powerful Communism would have been if it had a religion supporting it, one who's beliefs went hand in hand.

Perhaps that's why he rejected it, there wasn't really anything that would go hand in hand with Marxist theory. Buddhism maybe, but it was little known in the West at the time he developed his theories. It would have been extremely difficult converting an entire society to a religion no one knows anything about, and the existing religions weren't all that compatible.

[CEO Aaron]

As far as "kneelers" being the atrocity comiters.... Them evil Nazi's were decidedly NOT kneelers. A jewish family could not save themselves by converting, and they made no distinction between a orthodox, catholic or lutheran slav. It was all race. So dont try n use the "its the kneelers that do it" card crap!

While Hitler was certainly not a Roman Catholic or a Lutheran, he was certainly NOT an atheist. The 'Nazis were Atheists' BS is a complete revisionist invention used to discredit actual atheists by association. Here's a relevant quote on Hitler's religious beliefs:

'Peoples that bastardize themselves, or let themselves be bastardized, sin against the will of eternal Providence'

He clearly believed in a God, felt that the Aryan race was created by God and was destined to dominate the lesser races of untermenschen. If you need more convincing that Hitler and his coterie were NOT atheists, go check it yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_beliefs

So yeah, I'm sticking to my original statement. Your move.

[Theben]

The Soviets did just that, thousands died simply for wanting to practice their religion. The program wasn't conducted under the banner of Atheism as such, but rather under the general banner of a Marxist state, but that doesn't mean that Atheism itself wasn't responsible for the atrocities. And the same is also true in other Marxist regimes, like China. Cambodia under Pol Pot was exceptionally brutal to any supporters of a religion, though his was a rather twisted view of Marxism.

atheism=! communism.

By that flawed thinking I could say that Europeans are evil b/c of what happened in Stalinist Russia. Or that democracy is evil b/c of the bombing of Dresden.

[Theben]

One of Marx's errors was not to take advantage of religion. He realized what it was and how powerful it could be but then blinded himself to using it. Think how much more powerful Communism would have been if it had a religion supporting it, one who's beliefs went hand in hand.

Communism is a religion. That's why the others had to go.

Read (or re-read) the last pages of Sinclair's The Jungle. He makes the case for Marxism supplanting Christianity.

[Willem]

atheism=! communism.

By that flawed thinking I could say that Europeans are evil b/c of what happened in Stalinist Russia. Or that democracy is evil b/c of the bombing of Dresden.

Athiesm is part of Marxist Communism, which was the basis of the Soviet and Chinese systems. It was included into the doctrine by Karl Marx in the Communist Manifesto. Denying that is like denying that baptism is not part of Christianity.

[Willem]

Communism is a religion. That's why the others had to go.

"A religion is an organized approach to human spirituality which usually encompasses a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices, often with a supernatural or transcendent quality, that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power, God or gods, or ultimate truth."

Sorry, but Communism does not fit into that definiton at all. Communism tried to abolish the ties to a "higher power, God or gods, or ultimate truth" and force people to respond only to the state. It doesn't resemble a religion in any way.

[wodan11]

A person should not believe in an "ism", he should believe in himself.

[Theben]

Athiesm is part of Marxist Communism, which was the basis of the Soviet and Chinese systems. It was included into the doctrine by Karl Marx in the Communist Manifesto. Denying that is like denying that baptism is not part of Christianity.

Water particles are in the atmosphere. Therefore, I cannot breathe and will drown.