Very disappointed

[wodan11]

Probably went off to consult the manual.

[Alinestra Covelia]

How am I still receiving updates to this thread? It left the sphere of topics on which I could meaningfully contribute a long time ago. Time to unsubscribe.

[Felch]

Not even close. It's nothing more than a political system and has never attempted to replace the rituals/ceremonies and philosophies of the church with it's own. Being a member of the Communist Party has much more in common with being a member of the Republican Party than it does with being a member of the Roman Catholic church. And BTW, I admit the baptism thing was a poor analogy but I couldn't come up anything better at the time.

I disagree with that completely. Communism is about much more than politics. It provides people with a magical solution to all of their problems, demands obedience and submission to the ideology, and promises a reward in the distant future. It occupies the same space in people's hearts that religion does. That's why it is opposed to religions; not because it is atheistic, but because it sees in traditional religions an alternative and a threat to the grip it has on people's hearts.

[sorinache]

Not even close. It's nothing more than a political system and has never attempted to replace the rituals/ceremonies and philosophies of the church with it's own. Being a member of the Communist Party has much more in common with being a member of the Republican Party than it does with being a member of the Roman Catholic church. And BTW, I admit the baptism thing was a poor analogy but I couldn't come up anything better at the time.

You are dead wrong, Willem. Take it from someone who was born and lived 20 years in communist Romania under the late N. Ceausescu. You are dead wrong. I don't know what makes you so sure about what you claim, but I strongly disagree. Communism DID have all the trappings of a religion just like Theben says. It DID attempt to replace the rituals and ceremonies of the church with its own. It took for instance very young kids (4 - 5 years), dressed them with orange shirts and blue pants/skirts and blue hats and called them "Falcons of the Homeland" - very much like the Catholic church does with the Scouts (ouch, ouch, not on the head please, not on the head !). It took young children, aged 8 and put a red scarf around their necks in a very elaborate ceremony and called them "Pioneers of the Homeland". There were elaborate rituals and ceremonies for adults too. They just had a very different flavor than those of the church.

And finally no, being a member of the communist party has much less to do with being a member of the republican party than being a member of the catholic church, quite the other way around. Now please quit being obnoxious.

[Blaupanzer]

I disagree with that completely. Communism is about much more than politics. It provides people with a magical solution to all of their problems, demands obedience and submission to the ideology, and promises a reward in the distant future. It occupies the same space in people's hearts that religion does. That's why it is opposed to religions; not because it is atheistic, but because it sees in traditional religions an alternative and a threat to the grip it has on people's hearts.

This is a religious-oriented answer ordinarily posed by someone who can't believe that anyone can do without fantasy about beings with superpowers in their lives and afterlives. Communism, as practiced, regards itself as "scientific" believing only in that that can be proved. As a poster after you notes, they treat the entire nation as a garrison state with groups formed to control the members each age group. "Life after death" tends to be regarded as nonsense. None of this fulfills the function of religion in providing post life rewards for behavior within moral definitions now. No magic and no personal rewards to you beyond your lifetime.

[Theben]

The "personal reward" is the glory of a promised worker's utopia, always at some point in the distant future.

[rah]

Yeah, like when the government wilts away since it will have served it's purpose. (this is the one that always got me laughing. Yeah, like that's going to happen)

[Blaupanzer]

Religions make the same kind of future promises. Promise a great reward in an unverifiable future, deliver only condemnation and fustiness in this life.

I can see the bureaucrats willingly give up their power now that they are no longer needed -- NOT!

[Felch]

I regard Communism as magical because I think it's all bunch of bs. It's much more my bias than an accurate description of Marxist theory.

[sorinache]

This is a religious-oriented answer ordinarily posed by someone who can't believe that anyone can do without fantasy about beings with superpowers in their lives and afterlives. Communism, as practiced, regards itself as "scientific" believing only in that that can be proved.

That happens only when it opposes religion. Outside the scope of a comparison with religion, communism suddenly starts talking about ... "reaching Communism." The discourse went as follows : "We are not there yet, we are still in socialism, this is why the times are hard and you still lack basics things such as electricity and food, but if you work hard enough we'll some day reach Communism and it will be wonderful, everybody will have everything he/she needs and everybody will only be hold to whatever he/she can provide !". Doesn't sound very scientific to me, does it ? And what do you make of the concept of the "new man" that Communism creates (or by which it is created, I cannot quite remember, it's been 20 years ...). A kind of communist Messiah that everybody can become. Not very scientific either.

As a poster after you notes, they treat the entire nation as a garrison state with groups formed to control the members each age group. "Life after death" tends to be regarded as nonsense. None of this fulfills the function of religion in providing post life rewards for behavior within moral definitions now. No magic and no personal rewards to you beyond your lifetime.

Wrong again. Communism and the new man are as magic as Heaven and the Messiah. It is true though that communism didn't dabble in life after death. It avoided questions as to whether will reach communism in our lifetime or in a number of generations.

[Blaupanzer]

sorinache, none of that National nonsense is in anyway a part of Marxism or Communism. Read the manifesto or Das Kapital. Further, the government there was Communist despite their claim to socialism. So, in practice, this national solution failed while in fact offering magical excuses and goals in place of actual achievements.

With that in mind, I agree that virtually all "scientific-only" state regimes fail due to their own dogma and their introduction of nationalism into the mix.

This is yet another reason why Marxist state doctrines should not be seen as religions. However silly some people think a given religion sounds, the religions don't "fail" like Commie states. It takes many centuries for religions to fade away, if they ever do.

[wodan11]

I don't think anybody has ever been able to implement a pure Communism state.

[sorinache]

sorinache, none of that National nonsense is in anyway a part of Marxism or Communism. Read the manifesto or Das Kapital.

That is only if you limit your definition of "Communism" to those books only. To the Romanian flavor of Communism, the doctrine was continuously evolving through the writings of Lenin (dozens of tomes of him we had in all public libraries), then Stalin, uh, no, erase him from history, he was bad, then N.Ceausescu himself, a very prolific author and contributor to the Communist doctrine. You didn't read his books, did you (neither did I, though some were compulsory) ? All this I'm talking about stood there, in His books (I'd be curious to meet the guy(s) who actually wrote those, if they are still alive). So Marxism, no, but Communism, if you accept that the government was Communist, yes, since they were in effect making the doctrine evolve much like the Popes make the Catholic doctrine follow history through the encyclicals. You wouldn't say that something Benedict wrote isn't Catholic because it's not in the Bible or the New Testament, would you ?

Further, the government there was Communist despite their claim to socialism. So, in practice, this national solution failed while in fact offering magical excuses and goals in place of actual achievements.

With that in mind, I agree that virtually all "scientific-only" state regimes fail due to their own dogma and their introduction of nationalism into the mix.

This is yet another reason why Marxist state doctrines should not be seen as religions. However silly some people think a given religion sounds, the religions don't "fail" like Commie states. It takes many centuries for religions to fade away, if they ever do.

Theocracies do fail, don't they ? Spain was a virtual theocracy at one point in its history. Religions, when they cease being just ideologies (like communism was before the first communist revolution succeeded) and become the basis for government, do "fail" (in your sense).

[Blaupanzer]

When Communists leave the realm of economics and government structure, silly, stupid, tragic things occur inducing only bad feelings and bad memories. Glad that's over for you.

Similarly, when religions leave the spirit and church administration for larger roles, they become increasingly dangerous and silly at the same time. No reason a priest/preacher/et al should be good at economics or military. Their state also becomes over-centralized, even though the leaders do not know how to run such a place.

Do not see how a Communist state could be implemented in its "pure" form. Centralized power structures can collapse, but they don't "fade away" ala Marx. Generally, they stick around and get in the way of their successor.

[Felch]

When Communists enter the realm of economics and government structure, silly, stupid, tragic things occur.