Leaders: Personality vs. Traits

[Alexander I]

Here's a little idea I had for a potential CivV (or CiV, if you prefer ).

As of CivIV, a civilization's behavior is reflected solely by the leader's traits. In other words, Civilization X will be aggressive and imperialistic if it has Leader A, but it will be spiritual and creative with Leader B.

So I was thinking...

The world view of a civilization does not necessarily change completely from leader to leader. There are occasions where there are major paradigm shifts between regimes, but that is not always the case.

So my idea is as follows. What if each civ has certain behavioral traits, and each associated leader had a certain personality? The civ's behavior would thus be a mixture of how its people think and how its leader guides them.

Just for example, India could be spiritual and creative, so they'll always have a rich culture leading them to the creation of great religious art, literature, and monuments. However, under Gandhi they would be friendly peaceniks, and under Ashoka they might try to conquer or forcibly convert their neighbors.

Or another example, the American civilization might always be free-thinking and expansionistic (or whatever) and under Washington or Lincoln they would behave rationally and assertively, but under George W. Bush... never mind.

What do you think of this idea?

[Wiglaf]

This is the way it is now..

[frenzyfol]

Are you proposing that a leader could change during the life of the civ?
I believe someone brought this up some time ago.. You could use a great "leader" to change traits of your civ..
It would be good to have something fixed, as you say the civilisation itself could not change but the leaders can.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
This is the way it is now..

Right now it's just the leaders that have traits. The civ itself currently does not, IIUC.

Originally posted by frenzyfol
Are you proposing that a leader could change during the life of the civ?
I believe someone brought this up some time ago.. You could use a great "leader" to change traits of your civ..
It would be good to have something fixed, as you say the civilisation itself could not change but the leaders can.

Sure, that's one way this concept could be implemented. It's a fluid idea and could be done several different ways.

Dynasties could be implemented into the game, which would alter some things quite drastically (and I know there are some people against that idea).

The great leader changing civ traits is another option.

I'm merely suggesting yet another option - the civ itself could have static traits, but be influenced by the traits of different leaders. This would make the game even more customizable with the option to choose any leader with any civ -- there would be a lot more trait combinations.

And the civ traits would be different than the leader personality traits, as the civs' would reflect social movements, worldviews, paradigms and maybe even the occasional Zeitgeist, while the leader traits would reflect the individual leaders' various personality quirks, idiosyncrasies, tendencies and preferences. So the leader personalities would thus influence the alternating paths the civ could take.

[joncnunn]

Well right now, the Civ has the UU & UB so it has a bit of this. (An improved unit & building.)

In some cases, the UB amounts to having a partul 3rd traight. (Most particularly the Inca's UB is a Granery that provides culture)

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by joncnunn
Well right now, the Civ has the UU & UB so it has a bit of this. (An improved unit & building.)

In some cases, the UB amounts to having a partul 3rd traight. (Most particularly the Inca's UB is a Granery that provides culture)

Yes, but the UU and UB don't affect the civ's behavior. They add bonuses to various factors.

I'm talking about traits that would affect the civ's/leaders' actual AI behavior and reactions.

[joncnunn]

If you want behavior to be different, try the advanced option "random personalities".

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by joncnunn
If you want behavior to be different, try the advanced option "random personalities".

That's unfortunately not what I had in mind.

[Heraclitus]

I'm confused dosen't each leader already have a unique personality that is in tune with his traits?

[Wittlich]

Originally posted by Heraclitus
I'm confused doesn't each leader already have a unique personality that is in tune with his traits?

Yes... And I see what Alexander is getting at. Why couldn't the Leaders change their traits over time? People change and they are no different.

Cool idea Alexander But how to implement it?

[Vampgelus]

I think this would be a non-realistic thing. Take France for an exemple... it wasn't the same country under Louis XIV, Napoléon Bonaparte and Charles De Gaules. Leaders change, but public opinion does too .

Louis XIV did what he wanted, the was no public opinion (well, no significant one) because his will WAS the needs of the state (actually he was way to feared to be opposed by anyone).

Napoleon was a man constantly working on himself to be legendary, he raised the frensh nationalistic feeling and brought the achievements of the french revolution to Europe. He lead a country of "fanatics" so to speak, as they felt to have the duty of spreading the enlightement (philosophical, not religios of course ^^).

De Gaule was a politician who founded the fifth republic, bringing authority back to the President and ending up with absolute power of the assembly that made efficient governement impossible. He was a great reformer and really popular as the most of his actions were supported by referendi.

The leaders may change as i said, but the country they are ruling change alot, if not more. So if you want to give the civilisations some kind of traits, you should at least make them change from era to era. But then you have an other problem : what could be the Incan trait of Industrial age ? O.o

EDIT: I know about rhyes mod for exemple, who totally supresses the leaders traits, but gives the civilisations diffrent "abilyties". Incans get 2 and 1 on mountains, which is called "power of the terrace". Interresting approach IMO, but you shouldn't suppress leaders traits. But i generally agree that the choice of civilisation actually don't has enough impact, considering the impact of the leaders choice, so what you intend to "do" is a good idea, but should be difficult if you want to stay historical, considering leaders traits are based on their lifespan, a civilisation has a larger and more diverified life...

[MoonWolf]

I understand Alexander's idea and like the thought of it, but I think the technical programming behind it would be too difficult. And what will it mean for gameplay?

Some of this is controlled by civics. Like nowadays, I feel the "civic" in many so-called free and western countries, is changing from Universal Suffrage or Representation to Police State in the name of anti-terrorism and "freedom".

So, I feel we are pretty much covered for the gameplay. There are some aspects like wars, natural disasters or just other enivornmental circumstances that affects how a civilization "behaves". If the already mentioned indians moved to Norway 4000 B.C., would they still be spiritual or would they be like the Vikings, "trading" (volunteerly or involunteerly) with others in Europe, settle Iceland and America etc.?

Civilization is a game that allows you to play certain civs with factors from when that civ was at top/ was most important. Looking through history, it's normally their leader(s) who control public behaviour. Of course, you may get a riot after a while, but not always as people could be happy with what they have if they don't know about anything else. Or they are too supressed. Or they might change their opinion caused by mass propaganda which again is controlled by their leader(s). And this is were traits and civics comes into play.

[joncnunn]

I would tend to agree, cloest you could do coding is equivelent to rolling a die every X turns and if it's it a 6 randomly change to another pre-programmed personality. (e.g. say Gaudi swapping to G. Khan)

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by joncnunn
I would tend to agree, cloest you could do coding is equivelent to rolling a die every X turns and if it's it a 6 randomly change to another pre-programmed personality. (e.g. say Gaudi swapping to G. Khan)

Or roll it for every Era that you advance to.

How about something like this:

At the beginning of the game, you have different leaders with different personalities, As Alexander suggests.

Then you pick what traits you want your Civ to have.

So, instead of the Civ deciding what leader you get, the leader determines the Civ you get.

Using Alexander's example:

Pick Gandhi for the pacifist, behavior and Civilization(India), and then pcik any 2 traits that you want for your Civ.

ACK!

[Vampgelus]

Originally posted by Tuberski

pcik any 2 traits that you want for your Civ.

ACK!

IND/PHI please