42 turns left?

[Heraclitus]

Religions are persecuted in China.

And China has been runing free market for a while now.

[Nohbody8]

Originally posted by wardhali
you're forgetting the most important axiom of all, NEVER start a land war in Asia, the Russians would be committing suicide.

Russia is not only part of Asia but the more dangerous part due to the winters. The overconfident Chinese would be committing suicide by sending their huge SoDs into Russia.

[Heraclitus]

General winter would strike again you mean? I don't know, the Chinese might just pick up a history book or two before invading.

[Heraclitus]

Besides, Civ dosen't simulate seasons.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Heraclitus
The above is not completley true of slavery. Well except the US brand of it that had some cast elemnts... I mean freed slaves were not that rare in ancient Rome or Greece. Most of your criticism is correct. But mind you the cast system is a nearly imperative outcome of any political implementation of a geniune belief in reincarnation.

I don't agree that a caste system is an inevitable consequence of a belief in reincarnation. From what I understand, the traditional Hindu concept regarding reincarnation is that if you are born into bad circumstances, it means that you are being punished for sins in a previous life, and your punishment is that you have to live your entire life in bad circumstances. Any attempt to escape the bad circumstances is a violation of the terms of your punishment, and will result in further punishment in your next life.

An alternative interpretation of reincarnation is that punishments for sins in previous lives are not necessarily intended to last a lifetime. Your starting position in your new life is determined by what you did in your previous life, and your opportunities to improve your circumstances in your new life may be affected by your sins in a previous life. But there is nothing wrong with trying to improve your circumstances, and if you are able to succeed in doing so without harming or mistreating others, that is evidence that your punishment was not intended to last an entire lifetime.

I could even argue that it is wrong for people not to take advantage of opportunities to improve their circumstances. People who have more wealth and power can use that wealth and power not just for their own good but also for the good of others. So when people refuse to take advantage of opportunities to improve their position in honest, honorable ways, they do not just make their own punishment worse than it has to be, but they also squander opportunities to help others. Squandering opportunities to help others does not sound to me like something that ought to earn a person a better position in his or her next life.

Also note that when nations work to make people better off, a larger percentage of their people are born into relatively good circumstances. That doesn't look to me like a sign that whatever force guides the (hypothetical) reincarnation process disapproves of efforts to make people's lives better.

Of course this alternative interpretation would destroy the justification for a caste system, so people whose wealth, power, or privileges depended largely on the caste system had a vested interest in rejecting it and in encouraging others to reject it. I wouldn't even be surprised if there have been efforts to suppress the idea that the gods might approve of people working to make their lives and their families' lives better instead of just settling for whatever kind of life they were born into. But the underlying logic of my alternative interpretation is at least as reasonable as the logic of the traditional Hindu view.

Regarding slavery, there were examples of slaves being freed in early America. But having some masters free some slaves does not make the situation any less unfair for others who are born into slavery and whose masters are unwilling to set them free.

[joncnunn]

Current Civics run by major Civs:

The US, Japan, and EU are running the following civics:

Universal Suffrage + Free Speech + Emancipation + Free Market + Free Religion.

I do note though that during the 1960s & 70s many of the civs that later joined to form the EU were running State Property.

Russia is currently running:
Police State + Nationalism + Emancipation + State Property + Free Religion.
Prior to the USSR breakup, the USSR was instead running Police State + Burerachy + Emanicpation + State Property + (No State Religon) Theology. Very late USSR (Gorbie) / early Russia (pre-Putin) ran Representation + Free Speech + Emancipation + Free Market + Free Religion.

The Russian civ has indeed experenced several more turns of anarchy recently from these multiple civic switches outside a GA than the other civs.

The Chinese civ since the 80s have been running Police State + Burechracy + Emancipation + Free Market + (No State Religion) Theology, athough it is debating switching it's religion to Confucism and may do so as soon as they enter their next Golden Age.

The Cuban and North Korean civs are still running Police State + Nationalism + Emanicpation + State Property + (No State Religion)

The Venezula civ appears to be running Represenation + Nationalism + Emancipation + State Property + Free Religion.

Most Arab civs appear to be running Heirachial Rule + Nationalism + Emancipation + Free Market + (Islamic) Theology.

[joncnunn]

And a big welcome to the newest civ in the game:

The Kosovo civ.

Set free by the EU civ that had been administering them for about a decade following their culture flip away from Serbia. Both the EU Civ and the US Civ are maintaigning some troops there to prevent the Serbian civ from invading who doesn't recongize them as a player.

[Fleme]

Someone could argue those civic selection but that someone isn't going to be me! I'm just enjoying the debate going on here.

And it does indeed seem that China is running no state seeing how a large percentage of the population is atheist. However, the state still recognizes the aforementioned religions and it is a fairly safe bet that those religions have their temples and shrines up and eventhough Mao's regime banned the practice of religions, the policies have become more lenient over time and the state has officially given support to both Taoism and Buddhism. Even without them being state religions, they are still present and if we're talking game here, those religions have been there for a long time and there are certainly pagodas, academies and stupas along with other houses of worship generating those +50% each in all of the major cities.

So, perhaps rather than having the religious civic as Free Religion, it should be either Organized Religion or Theocracy, neither of which fit a nation that is officially atheist but has a large number of religions present. Note to developers: Atheism needs to be a choice

[Heraclitus]

I disagree with many of the civic choices stated in previous posts.


China is clearly runing nationhood.



Secondly, eastern Europe suffered from 5 turns of anarchy when they switced all their civics at once during the early 90's.


Slovenia and Croatia suffered from two turns of anarchy less since they swithced one civic less than the other foremer communist states. They are also better of since they didn't have to pay tribute to the USSR.


Many European countires were runing Mercantilism a few decades ago. Some of them are currently runing Evironmentalism.



Fleme, what benfits would an "atheist state" civic that would simulate states like the ones run by Communist states and Nazi germany bring?

[Fleme]

Atheism should be a possibility because many nations have chosen it over history, should it not? And it should not be a strictly negative thing either.

As for the benefits of atheism I'd go for small bonus on research and production, removing the atheist nation from the reach of the AP and making it so that temples don't grant happiness but 1 gold instead (instead of giving their churches money for charities or for membership, the money of the citizens is now collected by the state. Also, this would represent many of the Atheist states robbing the cultural treasures from their respective temples). Also Atheism would have to remove the cultural benefits from any religious structures.

That's how I'd go and create atheism for civ.

[Heraclitus]

A good secondary effect would be that foreign Holy Cities wouldn't get any gold from spreading religion to your cities.

Also I think the hospital should grant a 2+ happines bonus.

Cathedrals have no cultral effect
You get culture but not happines from Temples
You get one gold fore each religius structure of any religion
You don't get any GP points.
You can't build new religious structures or missionaries.
Chatedrals create +1 unhappines.
No unhappines from fighting brothers and sisters of the faith

Ok, that's a bit complex for a single civic, I'll try to simplify.

-Shrines both foreign and native don't get any gold from religions in your cities, instead the city with wall street does (I know the irony, but wall street represents a generic financial capital).
-You can not have the priest specialist, you can not build new temples you can not build missionaries.
-Religus buildings produce no happines, cathedrals produce +1 unhappines and do not have a clutural bonus.
-No unhappines from fighting brothers and sisters of the faith

No priests=makes for no more new great prophets
Now think of the crazy sinergy of having Wall Street in your capital and running B. and A.



Ok, still to complex for a single civic, I'l tone it down.

-Religions and religius buildings have no effect, religion can not spread (like state property for corporations and theocracy for non-state... how brilliant of me )
-Wall street gets +1 gold for all religions in all your cities
-Chatedrals produce +1 unhappines, temples produce culture (the only exception to the first rule)



I think the last variation could work. Since without religon no missionaries and no new temples can be built. Also no unhappines for fighting brothers and sisters of the faits. And the AP no longer provides a produciton bonus for your cities. It has some strategic value.

optional rules, if you think it is under-powered
-The National Epic provides +2 Great Scientis point for each chatedral and religus wonder you own.
-Scotland Yard provides +1 espionage point for all religus buildings and wonders you own.

[Heraclitus]

Wait why don't I start a thread about this?

And so I have.

Let's talk about state enforced Atheism!


Lets get back on topic.

[Nohbody8]

How American of me would it be to suggest that the French are running the Pacifism civic?

[Harovan]

Very, because they are a pretty warlike nation. Just back in the times you are hinting, the Germans were even more warlike and capable to fight wars.

[Heraclitus]

Very, for another reason as well. The French are fiercly secualr.