Early Religions

[Yosho]

Originally posted by Krill
Going religion first usually hamstrings you more than it benefits you; you have to delay getting the important economic techs. If, OTOH, you don't delay on the important economic techs and grow you economy, you can then use your increased economic power to kill the poor sap who did get an early religion and is near to you; if they all went for the early econ techs, then you should be happy you didn't go for an early religion because you would be getting rushed by those with stronger economies

Oh, don't get me wrong, other tech paths are equally valid. That being said, if you get an important economic tech (say, agraculture, or sailing, or even pottery) and I get Hinduism at the same time, I'm not really sure you would necessarally have an economic advantage against me at any point. That fast city expansion in all your cities for zero hammers you get by just founding a religion and building roads is a huge economic advantage by itself, and in a lot of situations so is the +1 happy in your capital.

[Krill]

You found a religion. You get +1 happy in a city, and some culture. If you get it in your second city it isn't really early, it'd be around turn 30 at the earliest unless you've gone settler first or something weird. If you do get it early you are putting off archery so you are setting yourself up to get warrior rushed or chariot rushed by someone who went AH or BW first and found out they got a resource. BW in particular gives a massive advantage, 30 hammers per pop; you can get out a worker up to 10 turns sooner, which is 10 worker turns, that could be an extra pop point from improving a food tile to 60 hammers from 3 chopped forests. I'd call that a very big advantage over someone who went religion first.

[Yosho]

Originally posted by Krill
You found a religion. You get +1 happy in a city, and some culture. If you get it in your second city it isn't really early, it'd be around turn 30 at the earliest unless you've gone settler first or something weird. If you do get it early you are putting off archery so you are setting yourself up to get warrior rushed or chariot rushed by someone who went AH or BW first and found out they got a resource. BW in particular gives a massive advantage, 30 hammers per pop; you can get out a worker up to 10 turns sooner, which is 10 worker turns, that could be an extra pop point from improving a food tile to 60 hammers from 3 chopped forests. I'd call that a very big advantage over someone who went religion first.

Well, note I was talking about getting it in your first city and spreading it to others with roads.

And of course BW is huge. If I get Hinduism, my next goal is generally either bronzeworking or archery, depending on other variables. If you get BW 15 turns before I do, and a worker 10 turns before I do, then sure that gives you a very short-term economic advantage; you can then start chopping 10-15 turns before me, and probably have a settler 10-15 turns before me. But while you might get your second city sooner then I will, my second city will expand sooner then yours will, it will have more squares and a better defense then yours will, and I should be able to catch up pretty fast.

Note I am talking about single player here and not multiplayer; multiplayer of course puts a pemium on early millitary techs and early rush tactics. In single player, you can usually get away with a religious tech first and then a millitary tech, although if you fail to get the religon and go for Jeudism it's a bigger risk.

[Krill]

In SP, it is actually a better idea to get archery and BW early so you can go and choke an AI by parking 3 archers or an axe/spear on a forest next to the capital. The AI just stakcs up archers in the city until it has about 10, which gives you a load of time to grow in the direction of that AI and fortify your land if it does attempt to break out.

Also, you are wrong that while I would get my second city sooner it would take longer because of religion; as it is often wiser to get 2 workers before a settler (extra chopping and slaving, having 2 unhappy faces isn't a problem as they should be gone before you grow to size 4 again) so that you can quickly get your second city up and running sooner, and then your third and fourth. If you keep on growing, the growth is exponential, and it gets to a point where the economy is not quite redlined but you are much larger than the civ that delayed getting the economic techs. The smaller civ normally dies in SP and MP.

[Yosho]

Originally posted by Krill
In SP, it is actually a better idea to get archery and BW early so you can go and choke an AI by parking 3 archers or an axe/spear on a forest next to the capital. The AI just stakcs up archers in the city until it has about 10, which gives you a load of time to grow in the direction of that AI and fortify your land if it does attempt to break out.

Eh...that's a fun tactic to use once in a while, but I'm not sure it's better then just expanding peacefully, or a more traditional rush. It's also kind of exploting a hole in the AI.

Also, you are wrong that while I would get my second city sooner it would take longer because of religion; as it is often wiser to get 2 workers before a settler (extra chopping and slaving, having 2 unhappy faces isn't a problem as they should be gone before you grow to size 4 again) so that you can quickly get your second city up and running sooner, and then your third and fourth. If you keep on growing, the growth is exponential, and it gets to a point where the economy is not quite redlined but you are much larger than the civ that delayed getting the economic techs. The smaller civ normally dies in SP and MP.

Sure, the larger civ usually wins in the long run. Again, though, if you want to expand quickly, and esepcally if you expect to have newer cities quickly start to contribute to your empire, the free culture from a religion is a big help.

[Krill]

[q=Yosho]Eh...that's a fun tactic to use once in a while, but I'm not sure it's better then just expanding peacefully, or a more traditional rush. It's also kind of exploting a hole in the AI. [/q]

I'm not arguing over what is fun or not, I'm arguing what is a better tactic and why (tbh I wish we had a strat forum, but it wouldn't be active enough; I'd probably get a tuberski unintentionally). Getting an early religion is best when you know you have a lot of land to expand into unopposed, you start with myst, and that your enemies are along way off, eg huge map with 6 civs. It is also a really nice thing to do if you can jsut start building henge straight away in your capital so that you can get the shrine really quickly, but that negates from the cultural advantage (well, maybe not negates, but weakens) of the religion.

[q=Yosho]Sure, the larger civ usually wins in the long run. Again, though, if you want to expand quickly, and esepcally if you expect to have newer cities quickly start to contribute to your empire, the free culture from a religion is a big help.[/q]

Get henge, you could be creative, chop a monument immediately in each city, there are lots of ways. The problem with religion is that you should have your third city down by the time you get org. rel so you probably should have built monuments in those cities in the first place, otherwise you are relying on luck for religion to spread. It's nice when it does hapen, but it is best not to rely on it.

[Hydro]

I was lucky and got Hinduism as Darius (financial is great fun for the $$, btw). Then I found I had two very close neighbors – Sitting Bull and Toku. I figured I’d have to forgo expansion and rush one, likely Sitting Bull. While I was building my axmen I tried a missionary and set it to one of his cities and he immediately converted to Hinduism – and it was a good thing since the next turn a Spanish Buddhist missionary would have infected him with their vile heathen faith. Then I continued with missionaries to Kublia and Wang Kon, and Hinduism spread naturally to the English and Toku. Now I have a very solid block of 5 friendly civs, all of whom are paying me $$ since they are of my religion when I established the free religion capital with a Great Prophet. Buddhism is the religion in Isabella, De Gaul, and Ragnar – I expect trouble with them.

With my coffers full and almost everyone liking me (for a change) I can concentrate on using my prestigious economic power to build new cities to fill out my area and start building (alternating improvements and military). I’m plowing through the techs and hogging all the new religions, and I’m sending all the missionaries to my capital. Having all the religions at my capital will come in handy when I convert to Free Religion and get +1 happy for each religion in the city! The plan is to form a Mega Block of Hindus and crush the nasty Buddhists. Or more accurately, get my proxy friends-in-faith to mix it up with cajoling them and giving them bribes.

This game will be much easier than most, and all because I got my religion to my neighbors and a bit of good fortune. Of course that will likely change when I start playing at higher levels!

Hydro

[Willem]

Originally posted by Krill
Going religion first usually hamstrings you more than it benefits you; you have to delay getting the important economic techs.

I'd have to disagree with that assessment. The income you can get from your shrine more than offsets the delay in getting the economic techs. In fact if it works out right, I can sometimes get Currency much quicker if I have a shrine due to being able to crank up my research slider a couple of notches. If I'm playing Ghandi for instance, I can run my research quite high very early and out-tech everyone else in no time.

[Unimatrix11]

Here comes my 2 cents on the topic:

I usually forgoe the religious tech tree in favor for the worker techs early on. I should note here, that a i never whip (which is just a matter of playstyle - i do believe anyone who says that i should whip - i just dont want to tho).

Now in a MP-game with a buddy and 5 or so AIs, my buddy got almost all the religions. He is a new player and just like me, when i was new in civ4, is intrigued by the "new" way religion is handled and eager to try it out. I kinda smirked on that and said to myself ´yeah, been there, done that - let him learn on his own´. That was one arrogant mistake of mine. By the late game, he had, what, 5 shrines ? 6 ? I dunno. He made hundreds out of them and outteched me pretty good. In the end, i had to throw the towel to a noob, even if a talented one. Needless to say, i felt a bit humiliated...

[Krill]

Originally posted by Willem


I'd have to disagree with that assessment. The income you can get from your shrine more than offsets the delay in getting the economic techs. In fact if it works out right, I can sometimes get Currency much quicker if I have a shrine due to being able to crank up my research slider a couple of notches. If I'm playing Ghandi for instance, I can run my research quite high very early and out-tech everyone else in no time.

So if you are Zulu you are better off getting a religion first instead of trying to hook up your food or find copper to rush someone with impis?

[Willem]

Originally posted by Krill


So if you are Zulu you are better off getting a religion first instead of trying to hook up your food or find copper to rush someone with impis?

Like everything else in Civ it's situational. Are you trying to say that if I start with Ghandi and Mystyicism that I should forget about Buddhism and go for a military tech instead? I certainly don't advocate purposely going for an early religion if you don't start out with Mysticism. I always hold off until Code of Laws in that case. But if you can pull it off, then I think you should do so. IMO, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

[Yosho]

Originally posted by Krill
Getting an early religion is best when you know you have a lot of land to expand into unopposed, you start with myst, and that your enemies are along way off, eg huge map with 6 civs.

Fair enough. It's also good if you have relitivly friendly neighbors and can spread your religion quickly for major diplomatic bonuses, but that can be a crapshoot.

It is also a really nice thing to do if you can jsut start building henge straight away in your capital so that you can get the shrine really quickly, but that negates from the cultural advantage (well, maybe not negates, but weakens) of the religion.

Well, true. Although the oracle is almost as good, as far as getting great prophet points goes.

Get henge, you could be creative, chop a monument immediately in each city, there are lots of ways.

(nods) Sure, you could get creative. But I'd much rather get an early religion then spend an entire civilization trait just for part of the benifit of a religion.

The problem with religion is that you should have your third city down by the time you get org. rel so you probably should have built monuments in those cities in the first place, otherwise you are relying on luck for religion to spread. It's nice when it does hapen, but it is best not to rely on it.

Eh, if you either have a river connecting cities or if you build roads, religion usually spreads pretty quickly, especally if you can get a shrine. Getting sailing early really helps too, especally to help your religion spread quickly to other civs on the continent. If I get an early religion, I almost never have to build momuments in any of my early cities.

[Krill]

Originally posted by Willem


Like everything else in Civ it's situational. Are you trying to say that if I start with Ghandi and Mystyicism that I should forget about Buddhism and go for a military tech instead? I certainly don't advocate purposely going for an early religion if you don't start out with Mysticism. I always hold off until Code of Laws in that case. But if you can pull it off, then I think you should do so. IMO, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

Woosh. See earlier in thread.

[Krill]

Originally posted by Yosho Well, true. Although the oracle is almost as good, as far as getting great prophet points goes.

Yeah, Oracle works. It can be better in some circumstances, can be worse...

(nods) Sure, you could get creative. But I'd much rather get an early religion then spend an entire civilization trait just for part of the benifit of a religion.

It's just one possibility, though I do note you've ignored every other possibility I posted.

Eh, if you either have a river connecting cities or if you build roads, religion usually spreads pretty quickly, especally if you can get a shrine. Getting sailing early really helps too, especally to help your religion spread quickly to other civs on the continent. If I get an early religion, I almost never have to build momuments in any of my early cities.

You only need sailing if the river connecting your cities is outside your cultural borders, so yeah, it is useful if you go for diplomatic/religious blocs. And builing monuments if you have religion is a bad idea, unless you are charismatic, but that still leaves the majority of scenarios where monuments may be a good idea.

[couerdelion]

Well it’s been said that the situation is important. The early religions (of which there are three), only really work for the civs that start with Mysticism. If you don’t you’re wasting your time – or playing on too easy a level.

Once again, though, it is situational in that there may be plenty of happiness improvements and food ones nearby which simply cry out for worker techs. But if food resources are high, chances are that the +1 happiness from the small detour to a religion will pay off quickly because every city can grow 25%-67% bigger. It’s all well and good getting resources improved but not much use if you cannot work the tiles.

For SPI civs there is also the extra lure of civics. Don’t underestimate the Org Rel bonus when it comes to building early wonders.

It’s important to note that this detour does not mean that other early game tactics will not work. OK, it makes them less likely because you start a little later but a rush is certainly not out of the question.

If anything, I find that grabbing one of the two initial religions probably makes the barbarian problem a little trickier because you’ve less time to get units out or improve those first couple of tile improvements before they start arriving. But even so, the +1/+2 happiness and the potential for civics pays off over the longer term and if I have to pay for this with a little more discomfort then I think the price is cheap.