Early Religions

[Quillan]

The religion gives happiness (more with a temple), culture (more with a temple), and production bonuses (with Organized Religion). I can see where getting those might give you a leg up, by allowing your cities to grow a little larger than they could otherwise. You can get by without it, but it sounds like you might need to adjust your playstyle a little if you don't get it.

[Ming]

With the exception of being able to build the shrine, and a free missionary... what real advantage is their to actually founding a religion. One of your neighbors will usually try very hard to make sure they spread theirs to you, so eventually, you will get a religion.

As far as being able to build a shrine... why bother. It's usually easier to just take it from another civ through conquest That way, I can use my great people for golden ages...

[Common Sensei]

I used to try to nab an early religion, but now if I get one, it's not because I tried to.

Once in a blue moon, the cards will fall such that on when I get to Polytheism, no one else has gotten it. This usually only happens on slower speeds like Epic and when I've eliminated a neighbor.

Other than that, if I found a religion, it's usually from Code of Laws, Theology or Philosophy.

[DirtyMartini]

Originally posted by Ming
With the exception of being able to build the shrine, and a free missionary... what real advantage is their to actually founding a religion. One of your neighbors will usually try very hard to make sure they spread theirs to you, so eventually, you will get a religion.

As far as being able to build a shrine... why bother. It's usually easier to just take it from another civ through conquest That way, I can use my great people for golden ages...

Taking a shrine usually the best way to go. Trying to spread confucianism is a waste if Buddhism or Hinduism is already on your continent and well spread. You may as well join an existing religiodiplomatic block rather than trying to create your own. Then just declare war and take that Shrine. You get the benefits of taking the shrine city, and you're probably going to end up with a second capital site as well. That's a strong early game. That's why I just ignore the religious path until late. Now, if no one on the continent founds -- then I might go for CoL.

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Supr49er
Is that a superstition, or does Hinduism give you something extra?

In general, the two earliest religions can be really powerful, if you manage to build the shrine, and spread them to your neighbours (the shrine itself helps). The AI also spread them by making missionaries and religion-based buildings, so that all later religions (even Judaism, which seems to be so close) become irrelevant. This means you get a lot of cash - starting in the early game, and growing over time, until all free space is settled.

Of course you can "just as well" conquer a shrine. However, they are not always conveniently located near your civ...

[wodan11]

Founding a "late" religion is extremely useful if you're able to do so just before you build the AP. This gives YOU the voting power and YOU the hammer bonus (and no-one else).

Wodan

[DirtyMartini]

Originally posted by wodan11
Founding a "late" religion is extremely useful if you're able to do so just before you build the AP. This gives YOU the voting power and YOU the hammer bonus (and no-one else).

Wodan

Good point, even more reason to burn a great prophet on Theology. I usually go for the AP just for the denial factor and consider the hammers a side-benefit. I hadn't considered switching to a poorly spread religion just to hog the hammers. Would definitely make sense for a Spi leader.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by DirtyMartini


Good point, even more reason to burn a great prophet on Theology. I usually go for the AP just for the denial factor and consider the hammers a side-benefit. I hadn't considered switching to a poorly spread religion just to hog the hammers. Would definitely make sense for a Spi leader.

Yep. The hammers aren't really a side benefit if the AIs get it too. (Though, a human has the intelligence to whip temples and monasteries everywhere, while I'm pretty sure the AI isn't that smart.)

Wodan

[wodan11]

Oh, and also, this isn't mutually exclusive. If you can get an early religion (either by founding or by conquering) AND build the AP for a late religion, then you can have your cake and eat it too. You get the $$ from the early religion being everywhere and you get the 4 hammers per city from the AP.

Wodan

[Seedle]

Originally posted by Ming
With the exception of being able to build the shrine, and a free missionary... what real advantage is their to actually founding a religion. One of your neighbors will usually try very hard to make sure they spread theirs to you, so eventually, you will get a religion.

As far as being able to build a shrine... why bother. It's usually easier to just take it from another civ through conquest That way, I can use my great people for golden ages...

There is one advantage to founding a religion. This is increased diplomatic security. Most of the AIs will attempt to be a religion they have founded, even if they are already something else. I have a had a few games where my close friend has switched religions late and put me in a bad spot militarily. By hogging the late religions, you know whose is what religion for the whole game.

That said, I agree with both of your points Ming. I don't think that what I said above is a very big plus for founding a religion, but it is something to consider, even if not founding will usually be better.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Ming
With the exception of being able to build the shrine, and a free missionary... what real advantage is their to actually founding a religion. One of your neighbors will usually try very hard to make sure they spread theirs to you, so eventually, you will get a religion.

As far as being able to build a shrine... why bother. It's usually easier to just take it from another civ through conquest That way, I can use my great people for golden ages...

I’m surprised. How about

+1 happiness (big bonus)
+1 happiness from temples (usually cheap because you’re likely to be spiritual)
Civic bonuses
Free culture

Relying on religion spread from a neighbour is patchy and a good way of getting a messy combination of several different ones.

[mkorin]

Another reason for the early religion is the AP. IT is too powerful to allow to fall into the hands of a competitive religion.

Mike

[The Priest]

Very early religions are powerful. Not only all the stuff about spread, diplomacy, early shrines etc. (though all of that is true) but the happiness bonus is very important early.

Often in the early years your happiness cap is about 5 - before HR, and before most happiness resources come on stream (which tend to need calendar, and/or markets/forges - unless you happen to be near gold or silver).

A religion will immeidatley raise this to 6, and to 7 if you can afford a temple.

This means that your core cities are size 7 not 5, at a criticial phase of the game. Which means they have 40% more output (ok not quite because the 6th and 7th tiles are unlilely to be as good as the 1st and 2nd) but even if its more like 20% - that is a crucial bonus to getting ahead when it really counts. Yes you will get religion eventually from your neighbours but it is much later.

[DirtyMartini]

All this talk of happiness caps is beside the point if discussing founding an early religion. Sure, you generally want to have a religion early, but I'm saying (and I believe Ming is too) that you don't need to actually found it. Odds are, someone on your continent is going to found Buddhism, Hinduism or Judaism even if you don't. If you have no religion, one will spread to you. I guess if you found the religion, you may get the benefit a little earlier, but I don't find that motivation enough to pursue one. For one thing, my cities don't often grow beyond 5 very early -- they get whipped at 4 or 5 pretty regularily. Plus, if Izzy or Justinian or Saladin are in the game, you're going to have competition for the early religions and may miss it -- why take the risk, the first few turns are too important to delay worker techs or defense for a missed religion.

I guess on isolated starts/certain maps you need to found your own religion, but Confuscianism will usually suffice in those cases. Also, if you're a totally peaceful builder, you may need to found your own for a shrine. I just don't play those maps, and I find early war to be my strongest strategy in most cases.

[Quillan]

In my experience, you're unlikely to have many cities grow beyond the happiness cap before the founding of Judaism. Of course, this will vary with difficulty level. Also, the number of AI civs on the map, map settings, and random placement changes how close you are to your neighbors, and thus the likelihood of religion spreading to another. Your mileage may vary.

I don't usually overcrowd my maps. I normally play continents, huge map, with the default number of civs. As a result, there tends to be some wide open spaces between me and my neighbors. I've also been on a streak lately where my last half dozen games have had almost all the early religions founded elsewhere. In my most recent game, Isabella founded Buddhism on my continent, but even by the point I founded Confucianism without trying I hadn't been able to trade with her. In fact, she founded both Buddhism and Judaism and hasn't been able to trade with ANY other civilization she's so isolated.

You don't have to found a religion to get the benefits. You just need the religion. Even with a random spreading of multiple religions you can evenly spread your chosen one throughout your cities through the use of a few missionaries. If you need the money you can always capture the holy city.