UBs

[Thedrin]

Originally posted by LordShiva
Is there anyone else who's a little uncomfortable with what looks like going further down the whole UX path (unique units, unique buildings, etc. What next, unique civics, techs, GP?)? I admit my position isn't entirely rational, but I've seen something like this happen before, and destroy a perfectly good franchise in the process - Warcraft. WC2 was awesome, but then WC3 came along with it's fewer units, greater differences between Civs, "Heroes," magic, experience points, etc., amounting to the RPGing of my beloved series. I hope Civ4 (or 5) doesn't do the same with the Civ series (if not RPGing, then RTSing).

Maybe I'm not making any sense.

Unique civics would require a lot more civics to be in the game and/or for civics to have a much wider variety of game effects - two traits that can be applied to units and buildings.

Unique buildings and units are effectively a way of introducing unique technologies. What else, beyond units and buildings, can be introduced to make unique technologies have an effect on the game?

It's a valid worry but I suspect that it will not happen because, unlike Warcraft, the further Civ goes down a path of specialising each civ the more it leaves itself open to accusations of racism/anti-something.

The best indication that Civ won't go down this path is the stance taken - which was printed in the manual - on religions. The exact same thing can already be seen in the Great Generals and Scientists of CivIII - each civ had unique names but no unique traits.

[Yosho]

Originally posted by Qwertqwert
I'll also do a ranking system for the unique building in my oppnion.

1 (worst) - Shale Plant, Citadel, Ikhanda
1.5 - Reashearch Institute, Sacrificial Alter
2 - Mall, Madrassa, Dun, Salon, Odeon, Masoleum, Apothecary, Ger, Mint, Obelisk (maybe 2.5),
2.5 - Stock Exchange, Seowon (Maybe 3), Hammam, Terrace (maybe 3), Cothon
3 - Forum, Pavilion (maybe 3.5)
3.5 - Possibly Pavilion
4 - German Assembly Plant

Can vary dramatically - Trading Post

People are rating the German Assembly Plant way too high.

I'd much rather have a small bonus the entire game then a larger bonus that late in the game. If you live until factories, odds are you've already won. Most of my games are more or less decided long, long before that. I would rank the German Assembly plant second to worst, the only thing worse being the shale plant.

Duns are much higher then most people are making them out to be. Walls are dirt cheap, and the bonus from them will help the entire game; it'll be good against barbs, and it'll still be usefull in the late game when you park your infantry/artilary force on the hill next to the enemy city.

[Yosho]

Originally posted by Qwertqwert


Stock exchange is also...

But I ranked it so low because I rarely see city maintiance above 5, atleast not until the later part of the game. This is an early building, and could only save 1 gold.

The thing you're forgetting is that you'll still have those buildings i nthe late game. So it's saving you 1 gold a turn, per city, for the entire game, and by late-game when the city maintence would be much higher, it's saving you a lot more. And it's almost free, as well, as you'd be getting the barraks anyway.

It's probably the strongest UB in the game.

[Qwertqwert]

Originally posted by Yosho


People are rating the German Assembly Plant way too high.

I'd much rather have a small bonus the entire game then a larger bonus that late in the game. If you live until factories, odds are you've already won. Most of my games are more or less decided long, long before that. I would rank the German Assembly plant second to worst, the only thing worse being the shale plant.

Duns are much higher then most people are making them out to be. Walls are dirt cheap, and the bonus from them will help the entire game; it'll be good against barbs, and it'll still be usefull in the late game when you park your infantry/artilary force on the hill next to the enemy city.

Personally when I play there are a few major powers and a most others are much lesser countries. (I play games of 18) so if playing german, this will easially affairm a space race victory, and still leaves a shot at a domination if you are very far ahead technologicially, as you will get the panzers, hopefully with other civilizations nothing better then riflemen or calvalry, and then you can make those panzers very fast. Even if they have tanks, you have quite an advantage over them (as you aren't technologically advanced).

[monkspider]

I know the common wisdom is that the game is decided before machinery, but it is not at all uncommon for my games to be in play until the last turn. My game I finished this morning was a space race that I won one turn before my chief rival, the Persians. While I personally would rate the assembly plant somewhere in the middle of the pack, it is not unreasonable IMO to rate the Assembly Plant fairly high.

[monkspider]

Here are my preliminary rankings of the UBs. These are likely to change once I start playing around with them, mind you.


Bottom Tier
--------------
Odeon, Madrassa, Shale Plant

Lower Mid Tier
--------------------
Salon, Mausoleum, Research Institute, Obelisk, Citadel

Mid Tier
---------------------
Mall, Apothecary, Dun, Trading Post, Seowon, Assembly Plant, Hammam

Upper Mid Tier
--------------------
Mint, Ger, Stock Exchange, Forum, Cothon

Top Tier
----------------
Ikhanda, Pavillion, Terrace, Sacrificial Altar

[MasterDave]

I think making the civs play more differently will be an enhancement to the long-term viability of the game, increasing replayability value and giving you more "game" to explore, and making things less repetitive.

The only potential problem could be if one or two civs become seriously unbalanced with the new trait combos, uu's, starting techs, and unique buildings. So far, this has not happened, and hopefully Firaxis will act fast to nerf any serious balance issues that the new content will create.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by monkspider
Here are my preliminary rankings of the UBs. This are likely to change once I start playing around with them, mind you.

Bottom Tier
--------------
Odeon, Madrassa, Shale Plant

Don't underestimate the Madrassa. Otherwise, I basically agree with you.

[Arrian]

I wanna see what Blake will do with the Aztecs. Whip it. Whip it good.

-Arrian

[Yosho]

Originally posted by Qwertqwert


Personally when I play there are a few major powers and a most others are much lesser countries. (I play games of 18) so if playing german, this will easially affairm a space race victory, and still leaves a shot at a domination if you are very far ahead technologicially, as you will get the panzers, hopefully with other civilizations nothing better then riflemen or calvalry, and then you can make those panzers very fast. Even if they have tanks, you have quite an advantage over them (as you aren't technologically advanced).

Actually, you're proving my point. If you get tanks while the other civs still have rifles and cavelry, then you should win. Why? Because you've apparently had a stronger economy then them for the entire game. Extra production at the end helps, sure, but only if all else is equal. If they get to factories and space race techs first (say, by having some major economic advantage the entire game, like the carthageans), then your advantage dosn't really matter, not enough to save you anyway. If you get there first, then you don't really need it.

I'm not saying that the German UB is useful, I'd certanly rather have it then not, but I really think I would rather have a fairly small advantage in the beginning, when it really counts. One or two axemen who survive battles early on that otherwise would have killed them because of the free gurrillia 1 they would have otherwise died from are worth more to me then better factories in the late game. A few extra, more experenced axemen or macemen often means the difference between losing a city or holding it, between ending a war in a draw or taking a few cities, especally on marathon mode.

Also, the advantage from something like the celtic UB kicks in very early on in the game, and continues to give you an advantage the entire game (even fairly late in the game, it's still better to infantry with gurrillia 1 then without it, assuming the UB still works at that point), while the german advantage only lasts for, say, 15% of the game at most.

[samspock]

They forgot to make the Artificial Stone Factory UB. Not sure who it would be for but it gives you stone and marble in that city only for all the wonders that need it. Replaces Recycling Plant.

That would have to be the best of them all. Great compliment to the internet!

[Thedrin]

I nearly posted a very condescending reply.

[monkspider]

Ouch, Assembly Plant got knocked down to bottom tier.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4305726&postcount=198

It only builds 50% FASTER with coal. Combined with being a very late UB, this knocks it down to probably the very bottom of the bottom tier. A very poor balancing choice, IMO.

[Thedrin]

Could you give the number of available engineers with the Assembly Plant if that's been made available?

While not as good as a further 50% boost to city production, a +50% faster build is excellent. In games with tech parity it means the Germans get the production boost from the factory long before anyone else - a huge advantage.

[dregor]

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