UBs

[Thedrin]

I love Angkor Wat. It's one of my favourite wonders. I mention it here because the Arabs will prosper greatly from it.

Maybe I've misread the meaning of that smiley. I assumed that people using it in conjunction with praetorians meant that they liked that unit. Why do people hate Praetorians?

On the Mausoleum:

Reduces war weariness by 25%
Makes 2 happy faces

I'm thinking it deserves better than one star. I never build jails but I see the reason for doing it as a way to reduce war weariness. If you assume the Mausoleum is only built for the same reason then it'll reduce war weariness and impede the rate at which the remaining war weariness disrupts your civ. However, since the Mausoleum can increase happiness in all situations even builders will be more inclined to build it.

I won't argue whether or not it's an appropriate building for the Indians to have but, while it's not one of the best buildings, it looks very useful.

[monkspider]

Very true on the use of Angor Wat with the prophets Thedrin. I have always been a fan of prophets myself and with Angkor Wat, they give the same two hammers as an engineer, plus a gold to boot. They are very nice in coastal cities and other cities with low production. Not to mention, great prophets are one of my favorite super specialists (second only to great merchants).

So you have convinced me that perhaps the madrassa will be decent. But I still think it will probably be one of the weaker UBs.

So I think Odeon will remain as my bottom UB. Anyone care to make an arguement for it?

[Thedrin]

It has the following redeeming point:

1) The coliseum is a rarely built building. In this respect it's almost like the Greeks aren't getting a replacement building - they're getting a completely new building.

It's still near the bottom of my list.

One exception that springs to mind. There's a particular strategy I used to get my fastest culture victory (1492 on Monarch level at Marathon speed - not a record or anything).

It involved using a philosophical civ (Mao) to create two great people farms which put all their excess food into artist specialists. This method created 12 great artists (and one more from discovering music first) which provided 156000 culture points. More than a third of the required culture. That doesn't count the culture poinst that the artist specialists put in themselves.

Should I try this tactic again in the future Alexander could be my first choice. Not only will the Odeon boost culture but it could provide enough artist specialists that Caste System isn't a must have civic.

[Common Sensei]

I more or less agree with Azuarc's ratings, with the exception of the American Mall. I'd give it two and a half, if we were doing partial stars. I feel the commerce bonus makes it better than two, but isn't quite as good as the buildings in the three star tier.

[thyrwyn]

Odeon=a theatre that can be built as sson as I get Construction. No need for Drama

Makes fighting Culture in captured sities easier=more warmongering.

[Qwertqwert]

I'll also do a ranking system for the unique building in my oppnion.

1 (worst) - Shale Plant, Citadel, Ikhanda
1.5 - Reashearch Institute, Sacrificial Alter
2 - Mall, Madrassa, Dun, Salon, Odeon, Masoleum, Apothecary, Ger, Mint, Obelisk (maybe 2.5),
2.5 - Stock Exchange, Seowon (Maybe 3), Hammam, Terrace (maybe 3), Cothon
3 - Forum, Pavilion (maybe 3.5)
3.5 - Possibly Pavilion
4 - German Assembly Plant

Can vary dramatically - Trading Post

[Common Sensei]

Originally posted by Qwertqwert
I'll also do a ranking system for the unique building in my oppnion.

1 (worst) - Shale Plant, Citadel, Ikhanda
1.5 - Reashearch Institute, Sacrificial Alter
2 - Mall, Madrassa, Dun, Salon, Odeon, Masoleum, Apothecary, Ger, Mint, Obelisk (maybe 2.5),
2.5 - Stock Exchange, Seowon (Maybe 3), Hammam, Terrace (maybe 3), Cothon
3 - Forum, Pavilion (maybe 3.5)
3.5 - Possibly Pavilion
4 - German Assembly Plant

Can vary dramatically - Trading Post

I think the Ikhanda is higher than that considering that combined with a Courthouse, maintenance is reduced by a total of 70%. Plus it might be the only UB that falls under its leader's traits of being built more quickly.

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Common Sensei


I think the Ikhanda is higher than that considering that combined with a Courthouse, maintenance is reduced by a total of 70%. Plus it might be the only UB that falls under its leader's traits of being built more quickly.

I agree, Ikhanda is absolute top of the top tier.

[Qwertqwert]

Originally posted by Common Sensei


I think the Ikhanda is higher than that considering that combined with a Courthouse, maintenance is reduced by a total of 70%. Plus it might be the only UB that falls under its leader's traits of being built more quickly.

Stock exchange is also...

But I ranked it so low because I rarely see city maintiance above 5, atleast not until the later part of the game. This is an early building, and could only save 1 gold.

[Thedrin]

Financial civs don't get a bonus for building the bank anymore.

But if you combine the Ikhanda with courthouses which, by itself, only knocks 1 gold off a 3 gold maintenance city then you'll knock another gold off that maintenance cost. The Ikhanda is powerful in the early game combined with the courthouse and with extensive conquering powerful by itself in the same time period.

I reckon its so powerful (especially for warmongers) that the Zulus won't be able to get double production on it - gaining a greater ability to expand in exchange for a lesser ability to promote units.

[Qwertqwert]

Originally posted by Thedrin
Financial civs don't get a bonus for building the bank anymore.

But if you combine the Ikhanda with courthouses which, by itself, only knocks 1 gold off a 3 gold maintenance city then you'll knock another gold off that maintenance cost. The Ikhanda is powerful in the early game combined with the courthouse and with extensive conquering powerful by itself in the same time period.

I reckon its so powerful (especially for warmongers) that the Zulus won't be able to get double production on it - gaining a greater ability to expand in exchange for a lesser ability to promote units.

Okay so it would knock off another gold, that'd still be fairly weak.

[monkspider]

I dunno, my maintenance costs always kill me playing on Prince/Monarch. I guess that is why I am in such awe of the Ikhanda.

[Thedrin]

I'll try to do a rating of some of the buildings. I'm splitting them into two groups,

1) Buildings whose affects are strong regardless of strategy which I'll rate here
2) Buildings which appear to be quite strategy dependent which I won't rate yet

Some unique buildings would fit into group 1 but are dependent on terrain. They're mainly in group 1.

Some of the buildings (like the Odeon) will have effects that would put them into both groups. They go into list 2 unless the list 1 effect is far more powerful.

There are a couple of buildings whose affects I'm not fully sure of yet and will not rank for now.

List 1:

1) Research Institute, Salon
2) Forum, Shale Plant, Dun
3) Mall, Mint, Stock Exchange, Seowon
4) Terrace, Cothon, Apothecary
5) Masoleum, Hammam, Ikhanda

List 2 (unranked)

Madrassa - nice extra culture but the priests can be excellent
Sacrificial Alter
Obelisk
Odeon - 3 culture might make it an alternative to a theatre but its 2.4 times more costly to build
Ger - I've played more times as the Mongols than any other civ any I've almost never built mounted units
Citadel - 50% less bombard damage is very good but engineering is an expensive technology
Trading Post - too dependent on naval usage to rate in list 1

Uncertain of effects (If someone can give a definitive description of the effects I'd be happy)

Pavillion (25% extra culture and culture points or just the extra culture)
Assembly Plant (4 or 6 engineers in total, 50% extra production with coal or 75% extra production with power)

[Thedrin]

Reasons for rankings:

1) The Research Institute and the Salon just arrive two late for the free units to do much good.

2) The Forum doesn't provide very much of a bonus - only particularly good if none of the other great people boosters are not in use. Even then rounding will make it less effective than 25%.

10% extra power from the Shale Plant probably isn't enough to get people who are put off by the unhealthiness to change their attitude. Could be an advantage if you don't have coal but it's not a rare commodity and if you're using Japan's traits you're not going to be a small empire. On a side note, given Japans rapid development I think they deserve more than a 10% boost to production.

The Dun is mainly of use if you're building cities on hills. Not always the case. Reports that the Red Cross doesn't give Medic I to units that can't ordinarily gain it imply that many units (melee, mounted) won't benefit from it.

3) The Mall and the Mint are almost identical. The Mint comes earlier but the Mall makes up for this by the possibility of extra happiness later on. Similarily, the Stock Exchange makes up for coming later again by getting another 5%. The Mall may prove to be slightly poorer than the other two on the grounds that it's not tied to a financial leader.

The Soewon seems to be just a research equivalent of the Stock Exchange. A lower percentage increase made up for the fact that cities usually produce more beakers than commerce.

4) Terrace replaces one of the more essential buildings in the game and gives it a nice culture boost. Always useful.

Cothon gives an extra trade route and then, presumably, increases the routes value, and the value of all others, by 50%. Would be on the top tier but costs 25% extra.

Apothecary; health is quite good - just not as powerful as happiness and the building can grant health through resources anyway.

5) Masoleum. +2 happy faces as well as decreased unhappiness. Builders who don't usually build jails have an extra building to play with.

Hammam; almost like the warmongers equivalent of the Masoleum bonus - a decent warmonger probably has enough health so wouldn't usually build this. The happiness makes it almost into a new building. Only worry; would a warmonger take the time to build it?

Hard to find a fault with the Ikhanda - even if the Zulus have to pay full price for it it'll be great in conjunction with the courthouse.

[Qwertqwert]

Originally posted by Thedrin
Ger - I've played more times as the Mongols than any other civ any I've almost never built mounted units

Why not? I remember the first warmonger I played (Kublai Khan) I created atleast 100 total Keshiks. I got the technologies for that as soon as I could. And I ended up controlling 40+ cities without creating a single settler.