What do Jewish Missionarys say?

[Col. Emil Furst]

A scenario set in the various military compaigns of the Bible would be pretty neat.

As for Taoism, it's very much alive throughout a lot of Asia. There are some tens of millions of adherants left.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Rook
Firaxis did it with the Pirates! remake. The pirates speak gibberish, ...

That's all gibberish? Man I have to stop smoking that stuff!

[Chieftess]

You know, when I first heard the chant, I thought it sounded like some loud, bumbling drunk stumbling through the alleys.

[Gryffone]

Originally posted by Son of David




Jesus absolutely should not be the leader of the Israeli civilization!

Most of ancient Israel's history was over and done with by the time Jesus was born. Israel had built its temples, inherited its land, and been carried away into captivity. King David and King Solomon, the great leaders, were long dead.

Not only did Jesus not attempt to deliver the Jews out of bondage but his message was spread principally to Greek and Oriental gentiles and his message and supposed crucifixion would, throughout the Dark Ages, be used as an excuse to oppress those self-same Israelites who have been displaced, the Jewish 'diaspora'.

Jesus was a religious phenomenon, not a political/historical one. The point I am making is that ancient Israel had a secular history, and an important one, long before Jesus stepped on the scene.

A game about world history and civilization is seriously remiss to exclude Israel from the line-up.

If Jesus was a Political leader then what Nation should he represent? Greek, Roman? He was a leader to some who were Jewish (weren't the apostles Jewish) and he was Jewish. The fact that others have used his name in contrary ways than what he represented should not in itself void who he was historically.

And why do you say that Jesus was only a religious phenomenon and not a Political/Historical one? Historically he did exist and he certainly had Political influence, whether one agrees or disagrees with his Politics. It seems to me that he planted the Emancipation seed. I noted about him not based on Religious affiliation but that I do believe he was one of the most influential leaders to have lived, whether someone agrees with his Politics or not. The fact that it was not orthodox and that he was not a conformist of other Governments does not in itself discount that he was a leader.

I also don't know if it is fair to say that the siege on Jerusalem by the Romans had something to do with Jesus or with Christians but didn't Nero also blame the Christians for the burning of Rome as well? After all, the victor of the wars gets to write History.

I guess in Revisionist history Jesus wasn't crucified but instead was a Conspiracy to destroy the Jews. Whatever it is I did note that it would probably be a bad idea to consider Jesus a leader. And I also noted that David and Solomon would be great leaders for Israel. And what about Moses? He did lead the Jews out of bondage and like Jesus was not a conformist to the rules forced upon him by men.

[Delta-V]

One of the religious chants sounds distinctly like the 'Rock Chalk Chant':
Rooooooock Chaaaaaaalk
JaaaaaaaaayHaaaaaaawk
Kaaaaaaay UUUUUUUUUU

[James]

No real translation then? Abraham leading the Nation, Moses, or King David. Ahaz would be good too.

[Badtz Maru]

Originally posted by Gryffone

And why do you say that Jesus was only a religious phenomenon and not a Political/Historical one? Historically he did exist and he certainly had Political influence, whether one agrees or disagrees with his Politics.

Actually, there are no contemporary historical records of Jesus, which makes it seem pretty likely that he was either a mythical figure or practically everything of significance he is claimed to have done was made up. The Romans kept very good records and his disruptive behavior in the temple and his subsequent execution would definitely be recorded along with all the other executions from that era that we do have records of.

This fact, combined with the inconsistencies and inaccuracies of the gospels and the strong similarities between the Jesus story and other contemporary religious mythologies (the similarities with both Mithraism and some legends of Krishna are striking) leads many historians to believe Jesus did not exist.

[Gryffone]

I guess if you disregard that the Gospels of the New Testament and other Apocrypha writings of the time were authored through followers or eyewitnesses of Jesus then that would leave less to go on. But there have been other references including Muslim and Gnostic references as well as Tacitus and Josephus mentioning Jesus and Nero blaming Christians for Rome Burning. I lean more that Jesus was a real man who existed but whether he was a Messiah or Deity is another level of inspection. I guess placing the hook that you either have to bite it all the way or find ways to dismiss it is more at the core of the debate.

I do actually agree that the story about Mithras (don't forget Horus) has many similarities. But I do not think that the story in itself dismisses whether or not Jesus existed. People have borrowed from stories throughout time but that does not in itself mean that the person borrowing the story or a personae enlarged by the story didn't exist. If Jesus was never real then I guess the whole history of Christianity would be quite a conspiracy (not that some parts aren't). Would it be a Jewish, Greek or Roman Conspiracy; or maybe even and American one? Interesting enough the story will probably outlive all of the civilizations.

[Son of David]

Originally posted by James the Scot
No real translation then? Abraham leading the Nation, Moses, or King David. Ahaz would be good too.

Short of (the impossible task of) getting a Rabbi to play a game of Civ4 and translate, the only other option would be to write Firaxis, whoever it was who was responsible for making the sound files.

Hmm.

[Older than Dirt]

Dear Badtz: You wish.

[Badtz Maru]

Originally posted by Gryffone
I guess if you disregard that the Gospels of the New Testament and other Apocrypha writings of the time were authored through followers or eyewitnesses of Jesus then that would leave less to go on. But there have been other references including Muslim and Gnostic references as well as Tacitus and Josephus mentioning Jesus and Nero blaming Christians for Rome Burning. I lean more that Jesus was a real man who existed but whether he was a Messiah or Deity is another level of inspection. I guess placing the hook that you either have to bite it all the way or find ways to dismiss it is more at the core of the debate.

I do actually agree that the story about Mithras (don't forget Horus) has many similarities. But I do not think that the story in itself dismisses whether or not Jesus existed. People have borrowed from stories throughout time but that does not in itself mean that the person borrowing the story or a personae enlarged by the story didn't exist. If Jesus was never real then I guess the whole history of Christianity would be quite a conspiracy (not that some parts aren't). Would it be a Jewish, Greek or Roman Conspiracy; or maybe even and American one? Interesting enough the story will probably outlive all of the civilizations.

I had a big long post, with citations and everything, but my login had expired by the time I clicked submit it and then I lost it. Arrgh! I don't feel like re-writing it, but the short form is...

Biblical Gospels - not contemporary records (earliest written app. 65AD), full of factual errors and many passages obviously written to make Jesus imitate Old Testament verses that the author misunderstood or mistranslated (i.e. the part about Jesus riding two donkeys at once). Largely contradictory and even Christian Biblical scholars have reached a general consensus that they were not actually written by the disciples themselves.

Josephus Flavius - not contemporarly records (written app. 93 AD), the oft-quoted passages are almost certainly modified centuries later by Christian revisionists if not completely forged - Josephus was an observant Jew and would not have said that Jesus was the Messiah even if he believed him to be a real person and that the legends of his miracles were true.

No conspiracy was needed as all the writings we have about Jesus were written long after his death. If there was a conspiracy, we'd probably have a lot of forged Roman records of the trial and execution of Jesus, but until recently people didn't really care if there was outside proof of the life of Jesus and only historians and scholars knew enough about Roman legal practices to be able to point out all the flaws in the only accounts we have. There was no 'conspiracy' needed for millions of people to believe that Joseph Smith was visited by angels and given magical spectacles, and that was less than 200 years ago. These things will be accepted by people who have faith or a reason to promote the religions based on these myths, and examined critically by people who don't.

[Overcast32]

Originally posted by Son of David





It doesn't look like it will happen for Civ4.

In fact I can't remember any historical or civilization/empire-building game that allowed you to play with ancient Israel.


That's even more annoying because we've had more or less the same old civs to play with since Civ1. It gets boring playing with Egypt, England, Zulus and Babylonians all the time.

Aye - exactly why I'd like to see them add some other Civs... Considering we are talking from 4000 BC to present+ - who knows, given a different set of circumstances, which empires would be strongest today - and that gives every reason to add other Civs into the game...

[Overcast32]

Originally posted by Badtz Maru


Actually, there are no contemporary historical records of Jesus, which makes it seem pretty likely that he was either a mythical figure or practically everything of significance he is claimed to have done was made up. The Romans kept very good records and his disruptive behavior in the temple and his subsequent execution would definitely be recorded along with all the other executions from that era that we do have records of.

This fact, combined with the inconsistencies and inaccuracies of the gospels and the strong similarities between the Jesus story and other contemporary religious mythologies (the similarities with both Mithraism and some legends of Krishna are striking) leads many historians to believe Jesus did not exist.

For most it's a faith issue..

However; it's not entirely true that no evidence has been found - it's still open to debate, of course.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/10/1021_021021_christianrelicbox.html

Again, who knows...

Just a FYI

[Older than Dirt]

National Geographic is not a credble source.

[Overcast32]

hehe, perhaps...

CNN then?

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/10/21/jesus.box/

It was fairly big news there for a while.