The Devel's Workshop 1a - Beyond the Veil (After the Slingshot)

[smacfan]

Wait on Spices using "Skip Turn":

1T-- 41 gold
2T -- Masonry
3T -- map
4T -- 51 gold
5T -- 51 gold
6T -- Scout

Interesting. Now trying "Fortify" for the same numbers of turns (instead of "Skip Turn"):

1T -- 41 gold
2T -- Masonry
3T -- map
4T -- 51 gold
5T -- 51 gold
6T -- Scout

Same results, no matter how you choose to wait.

Also exactly the same results varying the path to the hut (NE to forest, NW to hut), also exactly the same results moving to the NE forest first and waiting there.

As the Mythbusters would say, "myth confirmed". It would seem to depend on Turn Number at the very least, and not on the Path.

Of course, giving up Turns for a different "goodie" isn't necessarily a good trade.

smacfan

[Blake]

The (reasonable) reason that turn changes things is that other civs are popping huts and that moves the RNG along. Taking a different path but arriving on the same turn would be somewhat more unusual.

An observed effect is that the location of founding the capital makes a difference, even if you found it on the same turn. Like in comparison games those players who found without moving get one hut result, and those who move the settler one to the left and found (still 4000BC) get a different hut result.

[platypotamus]

Originally posted by raguas


P.S. I did some experimentation after a combat where I had 99.6% chance of victory and I lost. Though my experimentation was not exhaustive by any measure, i'm reasonably certain that it's the turn and not the path. if I'm not mistaken, the game re-rolls a new random number turn (but keeps that same number even if you reload the turn, exept if you turn on the 'new random number on reload" option in a custom game.

Assuming they do things the traditional and efficient way, they likely generate large number of random numbers at the same time, and just go through them in order until they are exhausted or the next "regenerate random numbers" step of the program occurs.

I would be incredibly surprised if that step isn't the last thing that happens before the player's turn starts.

So, my guess: the program generates a group of random numbers just before the start of each turn. If you take five different actions requiring one (such as five separate combats), reload the start of your turn, and do them in a different order, you may see different results.

However, doing those same five actions in the same order, would result in the same five results.

[Simplicity]

Originally posted by platypotamus
So, my guess: the program generates a group of random numbers just before the start of each turn. If you take five different actions requiring one (such as five separate combats), reload the start of your turn, and do them in a different order, you may see different results.

No need. What the actually do (I'm quite certain) is generate the SEED for the random number generator at start time. Given the same seed, the sequence of random numbers returned is going to be exactly the same.

Unless some different number of random events occurs, you're going to get the same results. Once you hit turn, the rand() function is probably called to check something else. I would assume that the AIs each have their own seeds (as their actions or inactions are not affecting the sequence, and this would probably work easier for multiplayer games).

[Blake]

I believe how it works is there are a number of different RNG streams, like one for combat, one for hut results, one for GP results...

[couerdelion]

660 AD - Sell music to Spain for 160d.

Trading in ducats?!

I’ve only just finished reading the whole lot of this now and it is definitely interesting to see the tech approach. I have adopted some strategies whereby I retain a lead through deliberately avoiding offering the chance of an AI to trade and just waiting for them to “double up their research”. The one time I tried this out, it practically crippled the AI research and allowed me to set mace against archer for the start of one war – without beelining machinery. It does however, require you to avoid certain techs paths that you “prefer” but you can usually be sure that you will pick these up later and you are almost certain to maintain the advantage of first shot at the “wonder” techs.

Which goes back to that question of what the diplomacy screen displays for tech trading. I’ve been in situations where I have traded writing to the Mongols post my discovery of Alphabet (so that would be 800-300BC). For a long time after, the Mongols did not know that I also had Alphabet and yet they still did not have this by 500 AD so could not have been researching it. Same experience when I give someone CoL (which would then show them that I had Philo and CS). It took a few turns for the AI to realise that had these.

With Gandhi, here’s my take. He has grabbed an early religion and snagged Stonehenge. By playing his own slingshot he has just used the Great Prophet to pop CoL but you beat him to the Oracle.

Certainly you should try the Philo slingshot but I would probably recommend the bad-start and island workshops first on your list. That is, unless you want someone else to provide a second rate attempt at either – that means I’ve have to get the upgrade patch and figure out how to get those screenshots. If you want the easy plays for Philo-sling then Lizzie, Saladin and Gandhi are probably the best civs. Do this with Cyrus and I WILL be impressed.

[Velociryx]

Smacfan and others who have been testing the hut contents....good stuffs, and thanks for the continued attention to that particular mystery!

raguas, welcome to the thread, and thank you for the compliment! I'm trying to find some time to start on the NEXT workshop....got myself a longer list than I can currently say grace over, but....that's half the fun I guess...

Lionheart... Ahhh, an old habit from the days of EU and EU2....I need to fire that game up again!

Philo sling with Cyrus, you say? Hmmm....will have to put that on the list to try!

-=Vel=-

[smacfan]

One more thing I have learned from this one Vel -- Your choices of tech research order are *very* focused, and timed to a whisker.

Your slingshot research order in this game was:

Agriculture
(Bronze Working from hut)
Mysticism
The Wheel
Meditation
Priesthood
Writing
Pottery
Code of Laws
Alphabet

I tried the game as you played it, but went for Pottery after Wheel. It seemed like a good idea at the time, get some cottages started, increase commerce in the capitol, bump up research speed... BUT! This was a mistake! Secondly, I swapped Writing and Priesthood, figuring to get a start on the Library sooner. Another mistake.

I wound up with around 7 turns to waste in Antitum waiting for Priesthood to complete to start the Oracle because of those mistakes. Started on a Granary to take up the slack, but that then took up the first chop (that should have gone to Oracle) and looked like something else was going to wind up taking up at least part of the second chop as well, all due to this timing mistake.

I'll never take your research path for granted again. Like you said in your P.L.U.S. thread, seeing ahead far enough takes practice.

Back to the drawing board. Try it again!

Thanks for teaching us so well. I am consistently learning how much I have yet to learn.

smacfan

[billones]

I guess since this is the "most recent Vel thread" this is where I post my testimonial, right?

Finally won my first game on Prince tonight.

Island start. With Bismarck. No Oil, so no Panzers.

BUT... I used the "two Caravels going in opposite directions" trick to get the Circumnavigation bonus (mostly to deny it to everyone else). At one point Isabella landed 5 Riflemen and a Catapult and *just* sacked one of my cities, but I was able to wipe them out with no further casualties, and had enough of a navy bult up that I was able to trade 3 frigates for her (only) 4 frigates, and she never sent over a second wave.

Late game, both she and Peter had invasion forces that could have put some hurt on me, but my navy was strong enough that I think I could have kept them off the beaches. Fortunately I never had to find out. I was first to Fusion, built the Internet to finally dig myself out of my tech hole, used the Fusion GE to accellerate the Space Elevator, and finally won a Space Race victory in 1995.

I was the weakest power for most of the game (just passing Asoka around 1900), but had the (near) top GNP most of the way to help make up for the island start.
And yes, it was threads like this one that helped me get over the Noble hump



ETA Finally -- wonder why it wasn't attaching last night...

[Velociryx]

Smacfan...yup...I started off doing the same types of things, and there are some instances where it's the best move, but when trying for an exotic start like any of the oracle tricks, it generally takes more focus than that....if you allow yourself to get distracted by carrots early on, then you'll miss the bigger prizes you're going for.

That said, it IS possible to structure your game in such a way that pottery can be built into the early game (if I were going to do it in this game, I would forego Agriculture as my first tech, and structure it thus:

Mysticism
Wheel
Pottery
(and same from here down)

The drawback is that growth will be somewhat slower without the big food influx from the corn, but you'll see a good deal more commerce....it will take a few more turns of research, but this SHOULD BE offset by the spike in commerce you see....

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Congrats billones....Excellent job! (and without oil or Panzers...that makes it all the more impressive) Keep working on that screenie, I'd love to see!

-=Vel=-

[monolith94]

If it had been me, I'd have razed every single aztec city. And then have razed the Japanese empire, for the arrogance of Sapporo.

[samspock]

I have gotten Bronze Working several times from huts. Once I even got mining and then bronze! More often I get agricutlture or the wheel or fishing, lots of fishing! For me any tech that is useful early on is welcome. I really hate getting maps. My favorite fist hut gift is a scout, I can usually more than double the number of huts I find first when that happens.

[fed1943]

The goodye hut given tech depends on the turn,not the path.I tried 30 times,with diferent paths:26 BW,4 masonry.
Best regards,

[Sir Og]

I am playing civ since 1992 and this is probably the best civ related material that I have read so far.
Awesome! KUTGW Vel