The Devel's Workshop 1a - Beyond the Veil (After the Slingshot)

[Crossfire]

My God, thanks Vel. That is exactly the level of detail 'Beyond the Veil' that I was hoping (and assuming) you would provide. I am very glad to learn about the 'switch to gold' technique in order to rush later infrastructure. That is probably more the missing piece in my game than anything else I don't do. I am starting to get aggressive like that (although not quite to that extreme yet). One thing I do that you didn't much is to beeline more later in the game and then tech trade more. Is there a reason you don't (other than that you don't really need to)? My Prince game I played yesterday had a great start like this and I won easily in the 1800s. I need to step up to Monarch but get my butt kicked every time I try. Maybe these new insights will make the difference. Thanks!

Now I too am going to get yelled at for too many parenthetical remarks.

[xxFlukexx]

Just tried the slingshot again at Emperor to test it out (was gonna test it out 10 times and see how many times I got away with it) but my game was so good I kept on playing(hehe gonna be funny to have test_account have a Emp win in my HoF). The difference between my latest game and previous games are like night and day, no way would a CS slingshot be workable in a lot of maps.

Here's my question now: What are the warning signs and things you should look for while completing the slingshot. For example, when should you abandon the slingshot and when should you get worried?

[Velociryx]

Thank you, Master Jackson! Coming from a teacher, that's high praise indeed!

And Crossfire, I'm glad the tutorial hit the mark! To answer your question on tech trading...our lead was so commanding that the only techs we COULD trade for were the ones we did. In every other category, we beat the AI to every tech in the game. In short, we were able to out-research the rest of the world combined, on Monarch, even WITH them trading with each other, and us only nominally participating in that game (of course, it helped some that we kept killing off their potential trading partners, but.... )

Nope...in thinking back on it, there was one tech (artillery) that India had, just before the war started that we researched ourselves, rather than trading for it. I was gonna just trade for it, but he wanted more than I was willing to part with, so....we let him keep his tech, and then....killed him anyway.

Ghandi was the AI tech leader, however, and it should be noted that none of the AI's even had electricity yet, by the time we won the game (and by that time, we had alredy completed the apollo project, were building ship parts in about a third or so of our cities, while cranking out tanks for the conquest, and WHILE rush-buying infrastructure in our newly conquered cities (the plan was to rush ALL infrastructure in our cities, and when there was nothing left to build, either put them to building units or set them to ship parts, and continue to rush buy infrastructure in the other cities, and that was working beautifully (we would interrupt troop or ship part builds with new buildings as they would become available (airports had JUST become available, and for most of our cities, it was the only thing they had not built yet, so off we went).

And on that note...I'm off to look at some bad starts....

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Hey Fluke! If I felt that the terrain was good enough to warrant the attempt, I'd not back down from it at all.

If the worst happened....if the AI snatched the Oracle out from under me, I'd eat it, take the cash, and move on, completing the research of CoL and trying to generate a GL for CS/Phil, or just research it the old fashioned way and focus on cottages and boosting my raw GNP.

Barbarian invasion or unexpected war aside, I can't think of a reason to back down from it until the fat lady has sung, and someone else has the Oracle in-hand.

-=Vel=-

[Yowzer]

Hi all!

Been reading this forum as a guest... and finally joining up after seeing the quality of the strategies & discussions. Really love all these threads that Velociryx does (as well as from other members). Gives me lots of ideas for my next game. Heheheh

Great forum & well done!

[smacfan]

Hi Vel, I see you have managed to produce Yet Another Great Guide! Many, many thanks.

However, a question about that early barb archer before Antietum -- The picture at 2300BC seems to show only one Warrior on that woods patch across the river, so I presume it is he who gives up the ghost to the Archer attack. When the barb Archer wins, you clearly state that the Archer is now in the woods patch. Then you say you attacked him.

Attacked him with what? The Settler? I didn't see another Warrior in the area in the 2300BC picture. Where was the second warrior positioned that he could attack the Archer in the woods?

Curious minds want to learn...

smacfan

[smacfan]

Oh! I nearly forgot to say -- BW again?!?!? What time of day do you start these games, I wanna start at the same time and see if TOD is in the hut forumla...

That's just IMPOSSIBLE to believe random. Are you sure your machine wasn't an alpha/beta test machine for C4 and they implemented the formula so YOUR hut goodies would be better than all the rest of us combined?!?

Gawd, that hut BW sure gives HUGE advantage. You really have to try one more time, at a different TOD, and retry until you DON'T get BW, darnit! How can anyone compete with that?

Still and all, awesome guide and example. Again, many, many thanks.



smacfan

[The_Paladin]

The contents of goody huts are determined on the turn you first see them, even if they are shrouded by the fog (I believe even if they are outside of the fog by one square they are still determined on that turn... though I don't have the game files in front of me to confirm this).

So it is very likely that if Vel just reloaded the game from the initial save it will always grant BW... or he was just incredibly lucky.

Edit: Forgot to mention that if you turn on that option, reload randomizes things or whatever its called, the determining of goody huts is redone every time the initial save (or any other save) is loaded.

[Hermann the Lombard]

I'm playing from Vel's starting position, and I attempted--with some guesswork--to use the same exploration path to that hut. First try: Bronze Working! Then I reloaded (after saving THAT one, naturally) and deliberately took a different path to the hut. This time I got either gold or a map (I forget). So as Vel said in this thread it seems like the path makes the difference. All this is a bit silly; it seems like hut contents should be determined when the map is generated so that you *can't* vary your path to change the outcome. I remember varying my path in Civ2 to change the outcome, especially in OCC games to avoid getting a city.

When I'm done I may post what I did for comparison to The Master so that I can improve. I'm mostly following his approach with some significant differences (starting with the placement of Antium).

[Velociryx]

'evening all! On my way to bed, but had to check into the forums one more time.

Yowzer - Glad you're enjoying! That's what it's all about man!

SMAC Fan - if you'll observe the 2380 BC picture, you'll note I've got a second warrior south of the guy in the forest. He's on a hill, dispelling the FoW for the settler. As the Settler passes him, he moves north, until he's sitting in the same tile as the settler in the 2340 BC pic (note the presence of the two dots).

The warrior in the woods was attacked by the archer and killed, and it was the warrior in the same tile with the settler that launched our daring attack that paved the way for the settlement of Antium!

And excellent notes about the contents of the goody huts! That confirms what I suspected about them, and the theory I posted earlier. Good stuffs!

-=Vel=-

PS: I wonder if it's the path or the TURN NUMBER that makes the difference in content. I'd be willing to bet it's the turn number....

[smacfan]

Well, it's either path or turn number, you can't prove either by my experiments, but it certainly seems to be one of them.

Followed an *almost* direct path to the incense tile, goody hut gave Agriculture (what we were researching at the time).

Followed the *most* direct path to the incense tile, then straight up to the hut -- BRONZE WORKING!

One turn difference between the two, one tile's difference in the path. Can't tell which one it is. I think you would need a Scout (movement 2) to tell which, and not necessarily then. Scouts give better results from huts, the Fine Manual tells us so.

OK, I saved the BW game, gonna play it out and learn some more.

Most intriguing result, I must say. I would have hoped that goodies were pre-determined at start of game, not dependent on path or turn number. It argues for saving a lot before black areas are cleared, so you can reload and take more direct paths to huts once you know where they are. Not a fun way to play, IMHO.

smacfan

[Velociryx]

Good experiments. I'm still betting it's turn number, if for no other reason than it would seem to take a lot of unneeded processing power for every hut to "track" every path leading to it, whereas turn number is just one variable. If I had to guess, I'd go with the more simplistic of the two, but...*shrug* I can't say for sure.

I'm just glad I'm not the only person who got BW from the hut!

-=Vel=-

[smacfan]

I should clarify the path for those who aren't sure what I mean by "*most* direct". I mean "most direct by Vel's strategic advice to keep your Warriors on defense-bonus tiles when possible", so the path is:

South 1 to forest
West 1 to forest
NorthWest 1 to hill
NorthWest 1 to grassland
West 1 to Spices
North 1 to desert
North 1 to hut

7 moves, 7 turns.

Agriculture was given when it was 8 moves, 8 turns (extra tile/turn after 2nd forest move, West to grassland, then North to Hill instead of 1 move to NorthWest to hill).

smacfan

[edit -- "plains" should have been "grassland", "Incense" should have been "Spices".]

[smacfan]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Good experiments. I'm still betting it's turn number, if for no other reason than it would seem to take a lot of unneeded processing power for every hut to "track" every path leading to it, whereas turn number is just one variable. If I had to guess, I'd go with the more simplistic of the two, but...*shrug* I can't say for sure.

I'm just glad I'm not the only person who got BW from the hut!

-=Vel=-

You're probably right about that. Programmers like simpler solutions (I know, I am one), and Turn number (or a function or formula that uses Turn number as a parameter) is nice and simple.

If so, easy to test. Wait a turn (or 2, or 3) before leaving the Incense tile, and see how it differs.

I'll report my results in a little bit.

smacfan

[raguas]

Hi Vel.

I've been playing Civ since Civ I launched, which was also about the time I started teaching at university.

I just want to take this opportunity to thank you for your writing -- you're clearly an excellent strategist, tactician, and meta-game analyst (I play a lot of other games where the meta-game is such a crucial concept). And you explain things very well, and with a flair for drama and description which is simply a joy to read.

I've beem "lurking" here at Apolyton since I discovered a strategy thread of yours back in the days of Civ 3. And you're the primary reason I still have the site bookmarked.

So, thank you. And keep up the good work.

ray

P.S. I did some experimentation after a combat where I had 99.6% chance of victory and I lost. Though my experimentation was not exhaustive by any measure, i'm reasonably certain that it's the turn and not the path. if I'm not mistaken, the game re-rolls a new random number turn (but keeps that same number even if you reload the turn, exept if you turn on the 'new random number on reload" option in a custom game.