The Devel's Workshop 1a - Beyond the Veil (After the Slingshot)

[Arrian]

I mentioned it b/c I've caught myself doing the exact same thing: "must build the best unit. Best unit maceman! Build maceman only!"

-Arrian

[Velociryx]

Yeah, that's me too...and in this case, given the TIME FRAME, and the fact that my production had not spiked yet (it was growing, but still wasn't great), building the cadillac unit was not a smart play....could have ended badly.

Glad it didn't, but it coulda...

-=Vel=-

[couerdelion]

As usual, Vel, another masterpiece in Civ tutorials. It staggers me how smoothly things seem to have gone here compared to my own attempts where I never seem to have such an easy time of things. I guess my biggest problem in making my own comparisons in style and approach is that the game speed and difficulty levels are different and this leads to a very different perspective in many of the important areas of the game.

Some of the differences I notice are in unit costs being relatively expensive on my unpatched version – I’ll have to find out a way to figure out getting the patch because the choices you make don’t always make sense to me. Paying just 140 gold for an upgrade compared to my 115 gold (at double speed) is so unjust although I can take some comfort that the AI would be paying the same price as me for similar upgrades.

I have to say that finding Gandhi with Civil Service was also a big surprise. How do you suppose this might have happened?

[Arrian]

although I can take some comfort that the AI would be paying the same price as me for similar upgrades.

No, you really can't. The AI pays 40% of what you pay on Noble. It gets bigger discounts as difficulty increases.

-Arrian

[Velociryx]

Thank ya, Lionheart! Re: smoothness....I prefer when things have no ripples or surprises, and try my best to set stuff up that way. I HATE getting caught off guard by something. Happens sometimes, but if I can avoid it, I surely prefer that to the other (guess I'm not really alone there tho), and I think this latest tutorial, played all the way to the end-game, is reflective OF that. More than anything else, I think this tutorial reflects my playing style. For much of the game, I try to be a military minimalist Even when the Empire was expanding, most of our units were garrisons, and it wasn't until the big wave of expansion that we started generating what could be described as a "serious" military (and even then, the greater bulk of it was built during the fighting, rather than beforehand).

Conquest was followed by an extended period of peaceful building (which is what I prefer), and I was able to build an insurmountable lead which basically let me goof off for the rest of the game. There was focus, sure, but it wasn't like there was some dire need for it, nor any objective that we were in danger of being beaten to.

I must confess that I stopped paying close attention to how much the upgrades were. Once my gpt crossed the 500 threshold, expenses ceased to matter. Once it crossed the 1k per turn threshold, I almost couldn't spend it fast enough, so I didn't really look, but I know what you are saying about the upgrade costs....

As for Ghandi...I think there's something wrong with the tech reporting screen. Maybe he had just started to research civil service or something, because he didn't actually adopt bureaucracy for hundreds of years after I did my initial tech trading.

Very strange, but I don't have a solid explanation for it (neither do I understand how the americans could have offered me a defensive pact when they did...that still baffles me!).

After playing with such a lush start tho, I'm looking forward to the bad start tutorials...

-=Vel=-

[The_Paladin]

I'm curious about your thoughts on something Vel. Its about the point in the game where you lowered your science to 60% to start generating extra gold for to use for production rushing.

I'm wondering what you would've done if you didn't have such a great GNP and tech lead at that point? Would you still have lowered your science to rush buildings or would you have stayed as you were - pumping your science forward as fast as possible?

As you said, once you are able to establish a lead and use gold to rush buildings the game is over is SP. Totally agree. However what if you aren't in a solid lead? Do you still think its a good benefit to switch to gold?

[Arrian]

Vel,

I thought I saw somewhere that once an AI civ begins to research a given tech, it disappears from the trade screen. It *could* be b/c the game doesn't adjust prices for techs that are partially researched (you could be 3/4 done with a tech, but the AI won't give you a discount if you try to trade for it, ala CivIII). Thus, if you reverse the situation, the human player could absolutely fleece the AI. Civil Service is a big tech, so perhaps G-man took a long while to research it... hence the delay between it vanishing from the trade screen and his adoption of Bureacracy.

-Arrian

[Tau Ceti]

Originally posted by Velociryx
(neither do I understand how the americans could have offered me a defensive pact when they did...that still baffles me!).

A defensive pact, like open borders or tech trades, can be offered when one of the parties has the required tech - in this case Military Tradition, which you had.

[Velociryx]

Absolutely. At that point, let's say you're running neck-and-neck with the number two guy. You lower your science and start building heavy infrastructure, and the other guy does not.

In the short run, you will fall behind in tech, as your nearly-as-big rival takes advantage of your turning away from that particular aspect of the game.

In the long run, however, all those coins you're converting to hammers will begin to add up, and the cumulative effects of this approach will utterly blow your rival's doors off.

This, of course, makes a number of important assumptions that NEED to be taken into account, but chiefly these:

* You have used the time leading up to this point to secure more land, and more cities than your rival. If this is not the case, then it is likely that even with a cash-lock approch, you will not be able to surpass your rival (and your best approach would be to go military and attack him).

* You have a large amount of latent potential in your holdings (cities which would be at least marginally profitable at building a market in, or cities with lots of undeveloped land that could be MADE profitable....frequently the case after a pillage-heavy conquest)

* The diplomatic climate - if you are neighbors with said rival, then military concerns will take to the fore a lot more than they did in this game, and your efforts will be somewhat blunted because of it. In this case, you can surely start, but I'd not get real serious about it until I could engineer a war for my near rival, and let his research suffer correspondingly....

But yes, provided that the groundwork has been laid, the power of the cash-lock is just too compelling to ignore. Even if your rival is nearly as big as you, such a focus can easily see you winding up with double, or even triple his economy.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Ahhh, and thanks guys (Arrian, Tau Ceti) for the answers!

-=Vel=-

[Huskerfan]

Awesome workshop Vel...by reading your stuff I was finally able to win my first Noble game this last week. Not impressive by some of the people's standards here, but quite an achievement for me!

Thanks for all of your insights.

[Velociryx]

Go Huskerfan! Post your victory dance! How did you win? Ship race, diplomacy, beating the stuffin' out of everyone?

-=Vel=-

[Huskerfan]

At work now...but will summarize

Me: Bismarck
Land: Continents

AI: Peter and Asoka - on MY continent

Huyana and Isabella on the other one.

Berlin founded where it cut off Peter and Asoka from the main part of the continent basically making them submissive to my demands. Huyana was 2nd the entire game.

Won by diplomacy due to treating Huyana like a saint...he voted for me along w/ Peter (same religion).

Got the CS Slingshot...all over from there. Kudos to you Vel on that one!

[Velociryx]

Outstanding!!

If you've got the 4kbc save, post it when you get home! Sounds like it would make an excellent teaching tool!

-=Vel=-

[Ralph_Jackson]

Totally excellent thread and (as a teacher) achieving that golden line of being -

Far beyond what I can achieve
But within what I can comprehend.

I doff my hat!!!

Ralph