The Devel's Workshop I - CS Slingshot

[couerdelion]

Having succeeded and failed a few times now, I’ve noticed a few more interesting things. All at Emperor/Epic so the times will be

1) There’s a big variation in completion time with the earliest Oracle up before 900 BC. I’ve completed as late as 200 BC. Note that Epic times will not be directly comparable to Standard/Marathon
2) If a second city has a good source of income and/or has production then you can often achieve the full effect (with academy in place) more quickly. Since you are concentrating on several things at the end (science, GP, production) the ability to focus one city on one or the other can help significantly.

I noticed one strange feature regarding rush-building which normally would go into another thread but might be relevant to the question of building the oracle and getting CoL on the same turn. It occurred shortly after I had completed the slingshot playing as Napoleon. My brave warriors covering Orleans (founding city of Confucianism) noticed a couple of enemy Axemen approaching. By chance I happened to be building a worker in Orleans and my existing worker was in the process of building the mine on the source of copper. By some fairly nifty footwork (if I say so myself), I rushed the worker out of Orleans as the first warrior in Orleans was chopped into little bits. The first worker was sent to help with the copper mine allowing me to finish the copper mine and move production in Orleans to an Axeman which I immediately rush built. The Barbarian Axemen advance again up the hill to Orleans to attack my final warrior defenders (who had a small advantage) when they were shocked at the sudden appearance of a full-strength contingent of my own Axe-men.

Now the first thing to note from this is that even though it is a turn-based game, my axe-men were finished before the barbarian’s move and not at the beginning of my own. My question then is whether this is a feature of either

1) Rush-building (either through deforestation or through slave-driving)
2) Building a military unit
3) Both 1) and 2)

If it is just 2) then the problem of combining the CoL and Oracle on the same turn should be no problem if the Oracle is rushed. However, if it is the former, then a rush-build on the Oracle, on the same turn that the CoL is about to be completed, might pose problems for the order of completion and potentially jeopardise the whole plan. Has anyone rush-built the Oracle on the turn before they have already got Code of Laws to coincide the arrival to the same turn? Did this work?

[gus_smedstad]

I've noticed that military units under construction complete at the end of your turn, rather than at the start of your next, whether rush-built or not. I've had a newly-built Archer defend against a city attack by another player, and by Barbarians.

The question you're asking is a different one, though. When does research take place? Unlike earlier games, it doesn't appear to happen on a per-city basis. I get the impression there are a separate build phase and research phases that take place between turns. For example, on the turn I've completed Archery, I've gotten Archers as a purchase decision before the game announces the technology, and it always seems available in the very first city that requests new orders.

- Gus

[Dominae]

Research takes place at the end of every turn.

[Shr3dZ]

Ok so I tried the CS-Slingshot for the first time this weekend - twice actually.

I set it to Prince level, Normal speed - and both times it was easy to achieve. Prince is maybe too easy a level, and normal made it irritating how quickly you can do it, maybe 30 minutes of real time. The bad part about normal speed is that if you see marble off in the distance, the time it would take to build a settler, build a worker, and actually get marble to help build the oracle is about the same amount of time to acutally just build the oracle!

I was able both times to finish CoL and either build Oracle on the same turn or 1 turn later by adjusting the worked tiles, the great scientist though was made around 4 turns later.

I really dont have any question exept maybe one. After achieving all of the heavenly goodness I just dont really know what to do with it, I went to alphabet right after as to trade writing or something and start backfilling some techs, but in the end I come out about as powerful as I would have if I wouldve just played normal without the CS-Slingshot... I kinda wondering how to best use this advantage ( if there is one ). Yes I have a powerhouse of a capital but thats about it, normally at this part of the game Id have other cities, workers, and military + infrastructure...

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by Dominae
Plus there's also the danger that some AI will beat you to the Oracle. I almost never wait for Civil Service anymore when I build the Oracle, grabbing Code of Laws or Metal Casting instead. It's less risky that way.

I think this is more realistic on emperor or above, unless you're one of the civs perfectly suited for this. Downgrade it to the Code of Laws slingshot.

The AI builds the oracle very early, so to hold off until Code of Laws is researched seems like too big a risk.

[CrashDuce]

Originally posted by Shr3dZ
Ok so I tried the CS-Slingshot for the first time this weekend - twice actually.

I set it to Prince level, Normal speed - and both times it was easy to achieve. Prince is maybe too easy a level, and normal made it irritating how quickly you can do it, maybe 30 minutes of real time. The bad part about normal speed is that if you see marble off in the distance, the time it would take to build a settler, build a worker, and actually get marble to help build the oracle is about the same amount of time to acutally just build the oracle!

I was able both times to finish CoL and either build Oracle on the same turn or 1 turn later by adjusting the worked tiles, the great scientist though was made around 4 turns later.

I really dont have any question exept maybe one. After achieving all of the heavenly goodness I just dont really know what to do with it, I went to alphabet right after as to trade writing or something and start backfilling some techs, but in the end I come out about as powerful as I would have if I wouldve just played normal without the CS-Slingshot... I kinda wondering how to best use this advantage ( if there is one ). Yes I have a powerhouse of a capital but thats about it, normally at this part of the game Id have other cities, workers, and military + infrastructure...

This was one of the things that I have noticed on my first Sling Shot game...I have a heck of a capital...Science is kicking...and barbaring hoards are kicking my arse! I was getting devistated by Barbarian Axmen while I was trying to found my second city to get Copper and defend myself. Got it...now here comes the Barbarian Swordsman. I found myself struggling to play catch up with military with the Hoards...meanwhile I wondering what my Brittish neighbors have been doing all this time.

Does all the backfilling help or hurt? Is it a better strategy to keep shooting up the tec tree?

[Velociryx]

The *reason* the CS Slingshot was done in this manner (just one city) was to provide the basic blueprint for its execution. When DeepO first began describing Aeson's initial idea for it, I postulated then that a beeline to bronze and chopping out an early second city would greatly strengthen the overall plan.

I stand by that comment, because IMO, it's the only way to fly.

Nonetheless, if you've never TRIED the slingshot, this (getting it to work at all...with only one city being the easiest approach) is the way to begin.

Once you've mastered the basics, definitely practice getting it done with a second city in the mix, because the vast flexibility it allows is beyond compare, and radically strengthens the overall design (simply because while one city is doing the Oracle, the other can be working on something else, including troops to defend against the barbs.

Further, with early bronze, you already know where the copper is, so....

-=Vel=-

PS: Re: Backfilling - ONLY tech trade when you can a) trade the same tech (preferably writing) to several AI's back to back and make more in beakers than you're giving up). and b) Only trade L 1-3 techs (up to the level and price range of writing).

Don't p*ss away your tech advantage by trading a 1500b tech for a 300b tech that you could research in 3-5 turns. You'll come out ahead by researching that tech yourself, and forcing your less research capable rival to research the expensive tech you already have.

Better by far.

-v

[fed1943]

Still unsure of the "virtues"of the slingshot(forgive me)I decided to play it,trying to make it similar to what Velociryx did,but not accepting a good techine from a goody hut.So,my first slingshot and also my first marathon.
I explored 5 huts:a scout,2 maps,92 g.p.total.
The year is 940BC,the goal is just reached.And that's the situation:
Rome is the only city,has 6 population,hapiness 6/6,health 10/7;has the palace,barracks,academy,library and the oracle(5 turns to granary).
Researched:fishing,the wheel,agriculture,hunting,mysticism,mining,pottery ,archery,meditation,priesthood,bronze,writing,code of laws,civil service(4 turns to iron).First at code of laws.
Prodution per turn:15 food,12 hammers,68 beakers,0 gold(no GP now).Unities:4warriors,1worker,1confussian missionary.Diplomacy:Isabella +1,Ghandi and Roosevelt +2.There are 37 tiles in my national borders,a barbarian state just to the east and Isa and Roo,each,have a 3level archer on sight.
So?I really would like to know your analise about the situation.My own...is not at all optimistic.No expansion done,almost no military;good research(I think) but the only possible cooper is far,if there are no iron in my land...I don't believe archers can fill the bill.
And the year is already 940BC(well,I'm not a marathonist).
I hope I will ear from you.
Best regards,

[narmox]

I've used the CS slingshot successfully quite a few times on Prince level marathon games now, and I wouldn't have done so well without it, if only for the tech trade value of the techs I get.

And yes in one game I was actually fending off barbarian axemen with my woodsman II warriors for 50 turns or so till I had the Oracle and finally archery... I'm surprised I did it. Yes I had multiple cities, no copper hooked up, and I kept whipping warriors to keep up wit hthe casualties... It was loads of fun!

[Velociryx]

Now that you CAN do it (with just the one city), try it again, and make your goal to chop out an early settler, to give you a second city. If you can still execute the slingshot successfully, then this is truly optimal, because the existence of the second city will enable you to carry on a much more "normally paced" game WHILE running the Slingshot operation from your capitol. IMO, you will find this a harder operation to pull off in most starts, but ultimately more satisfying.

-=Vel=-

[Arrian]

Depending on difficulty level & settings, chopping may not even be necessary to do the slingshot w/more than 1 city. I've done it with 2-3 cities on Prince level, standard settings across the board, continents... pretty reliably, with minimal chopping. 3 cities is pushing it, and probably requires choppage. 2 cities, otoh, is pretty normal at that level of play/settings.

-Arrian

[Crossfire]

I succesfully chop a settler and get the CS slingshot done all the time even on Monarch. But, I still get slaughtered later. On Prince it is pretty easy to parlay the slingshot into a win. On harder levels you need something further to carry that momentum further. I have seen the AI build the Oracle by 2050BC on Monarch. That is pretty darn hard to compete with!

Vel, are you planning on playing this game any further? Or maybe you could replay the beginning in a way that is more normal for you and then continue on thru say Liberalism? It would be really helpful for someone like me who is just starting to get competitive at Monarch to see what sorts of paths/decisions you might make after achieving the CS slingshot.

[Velociryx]

I hadn't planned on it, Crossfire, but I sure don't mind it. I'll start from scratch, play it "my way" and take it to Liberalism, sure!

-=Vel=-

[Crossfire]

Thanks, that would be great! Like I have said before here, I am entirely new to the civ world. I am just making the move from Prince to Monarch, and although I get off to a good start usually easily getting either pyramids or the CS slingshot or a good rush going, I often get killed in the next 100 turns. I had a game last night that I thought was going well only to look down and realise that Gandhi had twice as many points as I did and was already 3 techs ahead with a large army to boot. So watching some games played by people like you and Blake is a real help.

[gentle]

Originally posted by Crossfire
Vel, are you planning on playing this game any further? Or maybe you could replay the beginning in a way that is more normal for you and then continue on thru say Liberalism? It would be really helpful for someone like me who is just starting to get competitive at Monarch to see what sorts of paths/decisions you might make after achieving the CS slingshot.

Hmm..Liberalism. i would say CS is the wrong slingshot target, but I have to admit I am pretty curious to see it ^^