The Devel's Workshop I - CS Slingshot

[Arrian]

I typically hold off converting straight away. If a have a neighbor who is religionless at the time, I will probably use my free missionary on them, and then convert once they've converted.

If I've got somebody like Ghengis on my doorstep and he's, say, Buddist... I'm rather cautious about incurring the -1 or -2 from using my religion until I've got some decent production & military up & running.

-Arrian

[Velociryx]

I like trading CoL away as Rome, so the other civs can build the courthouses for me :P

This is a MOST excellent point! Hadn't looked at it like that, and may have to, in certain instances, rethink my position here.

But in general, I do like researching deep and don't mind trading at a bad ratio if necessary to fill out older techs.

I too, tend to stab deeply into the tech tree toward a particular objective and then back-fill. Sometimes, if there's a tech I have that's missing from several AI rosters, I'll shop it around to several in the same turn (or in successive turns, to get post-requisite techs as needed), but if I can only trade, say, CoL to 2 civs, I'm inclined to keep it and make them research it, on the thinking that, with the setup I've got now, I can outpace them, researching several of the cheap techs that everybody already has, faster than they can research the more expensive tech I got first. Definitely not averse to tech trading, and if I can, in aggregate (multiple trades) at least break even on beakers, I'll certainly jump at it, but I'm not in the habit of trading away expensive state secrets for knowledge I can pick up in 3-4 turns anyway (especially if I estimate it would take them twice as long to snag what I would or could be offering). Stylistic tho, totally agree.

There's always that 1950 space launch by some AI on another continent lurking at the back of my mind, urging me to get to my next research milestone faster.

Definitely a valid concern. In this game, we've met three civs, we make a fourth, leaving three un-accounted for. It's possible that they're all on the same continent, and if so, they'll reap the benefits of some tech trades, for sure (unless they're all aggressives...I got a good chuckle when I found Japan, Inca, and Mongolia (Ghengis) all on one continent, and all locked in an eternal struggle with knights and longbowmen, while the rest of the world had moved on to tanks and such). Still...with four of the seven civs on our continent, the tech trade advantage is ours. I've never seen a continent with *fewer* civs wind up with a better tech level. They can sometimes (verging on often, depending on the specifics) keep in the same neighborhood, but I've never seen them ahead.

I guess I’m right in saying that the Bureaucracy multiplier is applied to base commerce. So that an additional 10 commerce from tiles would generate 15 for science.

Then the science multiplier of 175% is applied giving an extra 26 beakers!!!

If this is the case, then building cottages would seem the sensible medium term approach as long as the city is happy enough to grow and you can always churn out workers and settlers if not.


This mirrors my own understanding, and yep...she'll make a FINE cash/worker/settler pump to feed the rest of the Empire for a good long while, I think!

That's an interesting example game. I gather you routinely research Bronze Working when going for this? It seems like a big detour. I've done the CS Slingshot several times on Monarch, but never researched Bronze Working as part of the deal. The upshot of that has been that most of the time I can't get the Great Scientist before I get the Oracle.

The big random element in this particular article isn't the terrain, it's Bronze Working from the hut. That alllowed you to do all sorts of things I'd never touch as part of a normal CS slingshot.

I seldom USE the Slingshot, in practice. It's style of play doesn't mesh well with other elements I consider myself to be much better at, but for the sake of providing an example, I went with it.

And yes, Bronze is THE tech of choice for me in the ancient age. Until I have pop and chop options (note the word OPTIONS here...not to say that I unfailingly use either, but the vast flexibility that the options allow is priceless, and truthfully, beyond compare), I do not feel that I'm "firing on all cylinders." Plus, knowing where the copper is, is a great source of comfort (and power). Well worth the trip. Having said that, if I start with Mining, I find that I can make Bronze AND the CS Slingshot, given terrain to support such a maneuver, *provided* that I make no other detours along the way. And you're right about the Bronze from the hut. It'll be interesting as folks play this out from the start and *don't* get that boon, to see how the game shakes out differently.

This seems like a perfect setup for the Chinese civ under Quin. Financial and Industrious will help both with the oracle and the research speed, and Civil Service will unlock the UU, which is very powerful and will be unbeatable gained so early in game (you will also need other prerequisites, but they should be a piece of cake with your monster science production).

Even Mao could be great for it, being Philosophical, and thus getting the great scientist even faster.

Oh man, I agree...how sweet would that be...a pity you can't change civs in mid stream...(salivates)

Now from this point, I would rather time ironworking with the settler to get city #2 working the iron pronto. But I guess you have the room to not need to rush it.

Couple things i would have done differently, Romans = fear noone early game, so I would have switched to Confucianism imediatly and taken the extra commerce from the extra cottage. Also, when i found Issabella i would have checked to see if she left me a worker sitting on her border. But I'm much more agressive, and feel that pretorians make me invulnerable...


There were a few reasons I took a more passive approach. Among them are:

* The sheer distances involved. I've got plenty of time, and they've got horrible terrain to cross to get to me (well, horrible pre-ironworking anyways), so I can sit back and build a solid core of cities, properly garrison them all, build my courthouses at home (as a prelim for an FP build in Madrid or elsewhere), and gather an unholy strength.

* Ancient era warfare would have distracted from the primary mission of the tutorial, and could have impaired science capabilities had the war dragged on.

* Insufficient number of units to tell with reliability where all of Spain's scouting archers were (which were more than a match for my home defense warriors)

* No copper in starting radius. If I could have been building or upgrading to Axemen, I'd not have flinched about the roving Archers, but with all of four warriors guarding hearth and home...too early.

Still, it won't take me long to make my declaration known, and, if you load the "after" save, it's only a turn or two after the religious founding, soooo....

And in other news....this has been pretty well recieved...I'm glad for that!

-=Vel=-

[Dominae]

Great thread idea, Vel, and a very well-written play-by-play!

I tried it out myself since you provided the 4000BC save. I did not read your report first, so this is what I do would in a normal game situation.

The first difference between our games is that I moved the Settler SW of the starting location instead of E as you did. You can actually see the Flood Plains under the darkness on the first turn, but I was less interested in those than the set of Grassland Hills to the West. Checking that I would indeed still get the Gold and Corn in the cap's fat cross radius, I thus moved and settle there.

If you want your cap to be a pure research monster, the Flood Plains (and Incense, although there's no way of knowing about these initially) is the way to go. On the other hand, Bureaucracy provides both Commerce and Hammer multipliers in your cap. I feel this is relevant so I moved toward a more production-intensive spot.

I did not get any Hut-luck (I had to research Bronze Working the hard way), and the first Warrior out of my capital got ganked by a Panther/Lion ambush (I hate those). Still, my original Warrior mapped out the continent pretty fast, and I did get Hunting from a Tribal Village very late in exploration.

3820BC: Map from Tribal Village
3480BC: Agriculture
3460BC: Contact Roosevelt
3420BC: Contact Gandhi
3120BC: Contact Isabella
3020BC: The Wheel
2820BC: Hunting from Tribal Village
2560BC: Pottery
2320BC: Settler

As you can see I followed much the same research path as you, for precisely the same reasons. Note that went for Pottery right away despite not having Bronze Working; ultimately the slingshot is a research race, not a production one, so getting those Cottages up really helps.

The big difference comes in 2320BC when I decided to opt out of pure vertical growth and produce a Settler. The city of Antium went straight for those Flood Plains that were just out of my capital's reach. Then both these cities built an additional Worker, for a total of three.

2280BC: Antium
2100BC: Writing, Open Borders with All
1870BC: Bronze Working
1800BC: Mysticism
1680BC: Meditation
1600BC: Priesthood
1580BC: Library
1???BC: Settler
1400BC: Cumae

I had nothing really to build after my Library so I opted for yet another Settler. I decided against assigning Scientists right away and favoring the Settler instead, as I was confident I could get the Great Scientist points quite high despite Great Prophet interference from the Oracle. I did not play it out but it would have been something like 90/10 or better. The Academy is a very nice boon, but faster cities are pretty good too.

1210BC: Code of Laws, Confucianism, Oracle, Civil Service, Anarchy
1200BC: State Religion, Anarchy
1170BC: Bureaucracy, Slavery

As you can see, I hit Code of Laws a bit later than you, and it took me longer to get into Bureaucracy because the addition of Slavery upped the Anarchy to 3 turns (bleh). However, in 1210BC I have 3 cities to your one (sizes 6,5, and 1), and 3 Workers. One of my expansions has a Granary, and both are almost done their Library.

Because of your Academy, you are definitely out-researching me (by a dozen Beakers). However, my capital is producing far more Hammers. You are therefore in a better position for a builder/peaceful game, while I'm all set to go bonk some heads with Praetorians. I would probably stick to three cities for quite a while, perhaps conquering an enemy capital for my fourth city.



I failed the stated goals of your scenario (doh!) because I did not go for pure vertical growth. I usually try for a more balanced approach. On the higher difficulties it's a bit dangerous to stay at one city for so long, as the AI's will squeeze you in. Plus there's also the danger that some AI will beat you to the Oracle. I almost never wait for Civil Service anymore when I build the Oracle, grabbing Code of Laws or Metal Casting instead. It's less risky that way.

Again, great idea; it was very interesting to see the macro and micro differences between our games. I hope others will join in the fun.

[Velociryx]

Bravo, Dom! And I'm glad you checked this thread out!

The playing style you outlined here is much more in keeping with my standard playing style, but, in keeping with the "focus on vertical growth" idea, and to keep full attention on the slingshot itself, I just stuck with one city to fulfill my own conditions. I think that on this particular map, give that our rivals are relatively far away, we were not under any particular risk of being crowded out, but were I to begin again from 4k BC and play it the way I'm more comfortable with, I'd likely have at least one other, and possibly more cities than just that one (and I HAD to get CS with the Oracle, else I'd have had to change the thread title! )

VERY well played!



-=Vel=-

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Velociryx
The playing style you outlined here is much more in keeping with my standard playing style, but, in keeping with the "focus on vertical growth" idea, and to keep full attention on the slingshot itself, I just stuck with one city to fulfill my own conditions.

Perhaps it's good that I did not do the same, as our reports would have been boringly similar!

Likewise, very well played! The bit about getting your Great Scientist out before completing the Oracle is subtle, yet considerations like these can make or break the early-game.

[Velociryx]

Nahhh, it's all about the shading. I think even if you'd played it out the same general way, the shading would have made it fascinating.

And I totally agree with you about waiting to see what others do! The more variations we get, the more interesting the total mix will become!



-=Vel=-

[Hauptman]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Nahhh, it's all about the shading. I think even if you'd played it out the same general way, the shading would have made it fascinating.

And I totally agree with you about waiting to see what others do! The more variations we get, the more interesting the total mix will become!



-=Vel=-

Your trying very hard to get me to load it up and play it here at work arent you? Don't you know I'm s'posed to be training the new hires?

[Velociryx]

In a word?

Yes.



-=Vel=-

[CrashDuce]

Vel...one question I have is during your playing time you made a consistent effort to keep the size of the city at 6? Is there a reason for this, is there more problems with a city reaching 7 or higher that early?

[Arrian]

Happiness, I assume. It's monarch... yeah, I think size 7 would have an unhappy person. Once you get Monarchy, though, that gets better (wines, incense, Hed Rule).

-Arrian

[CrashDuce]

Ok...I see now the balance of Yellow and Red Happy Faces...I'm assuming the Pop Rush which caused you to go from 6 to 5 size city...is what caused the Red Happy to not drop and stay 6Yellow to 6Red

[Velociryx]

That's it exactly. In a Marathon game, the unhappiness will last for 30 turns, and then we're back to good. In the meantime tho, it's past time to expand, so we're off on that track now, and it'll keep our pop where we want it for the time being....and then, there's the "religion thing...."

-=Vel=-

[Verrucosus]

So this is "Vel at 40 %"? Now I'm scared.

Seriously, the workshop concept is intriguing because it combines a general strategy with a specific game situation, thereby avoiding with respect to the starting position the "it's all situational" argument (which is almost always valid, but can easily stifle discussions).

Unfortunately, I'm unable to play the game at the moment, but reading threads like this one is an excellent substitute drug.

[Velociryx]

There'll be more coming when I'm feeling closer to 100%, and I'm glad you're liking it so far!



-=Vel=-

[Shr3dZ]

Ah, this was a really good read, I think Ill give it a shot tonight, although I think the outcome will be somewhat bias.

Im thinking one of the only ways to improve on what youve already done is by building the cottages even eariler (if thats possible), that way they would be bringing in even more cash.

One minor thing, was there any reason why your second city placement wasnt one square "9" away?

At first I found it interesting that you built no roads, then later I remembered that rivers are roads for the purposes of resources, also you didnt need them b/c you werent sending off any settlers, no need to get them to city sites faster.

edit: I just remembered another question I meant to ask, its kindov a n00b question but oh well. You mentioned in yer first post that you perfered to put yer city on a grassland for the extra food, but I was under the impression that no matter where you place yer city, it automatically defaults to: 2 food, 1 hammer, 1 commerce ... or if you place it on a plains/hills it defaults to: 2 food, 2 hammer, 1 commerce ... but lets face it, I obviously dont know what it auto defaults to - please enlighten me.