The Devel's Workshop I - CS Slingshot

[Velociryx]

Shr3dZ: Glad you enjoyed the read! Second city placement, tho? Where? In one of the pictures?

And as to the other question, that one, I got covered! It's not that the city tile itself changes (the only instance I'm aware of is a city founded on a plains hill will produce an extra hammer), but that I wanted to free up that plains tile because it produces a hammer when worked, and the green tile I settled on produces only food when worked. One hammer might not be much, but in a production poor city, it means a lot!

-=Vel=-

[Ethelwind101]

Great stuff . This is really helpful, and will look forward to the next stuff, because now comes the part after getting Writing which causes me difficulties.

This has really helped me (usually difficulties on Monarch, barely winning currently though last 3 tries helped).

Now I know why I always had so many problems...I never even tried the Oracle :P...

Will add my Report tomorrow, too late now and lots of steps ...:P.

[Spaced Cowboy]

Very nice tutorial.

[uberfish]

I didn't really look at the exploration pictures much, so I decided to have a go at this myself and see how founding on the starting square would work out.

4000 Rome founded on start, start agriculture and worker
3500 Agriculture done, start wheel
3300 Hut - Masonry
3020 Wheel done, start pottery. Wow things seem slow on Marathon.
2900 Contact with American scout
2880 Contact with Indian archer, Hut - free warrior
2800 Already discovered stone, marble, ivory, spices, wine, sugar, fish, clam, crab, cows, and sheep (!!)
2780 At this point, some weird instinct is telling me to build Pyramids, taking a save at 2780 and I might replay it later. I'll play this out to 0AD with the CS slingshot for comparison.
2700 Contact with Spanish archer scouting the eastern jungle
2660 Pottery is done, start mysticism. 5 warriors done, start settler. Hut - 86 gold.
2460 Start Meditation. I think I'm going to have to skip bronze, but should be OK as I haven't lost any warriors and can place them on strategic hills.
2220 Settler done, Rome starts granary.
2180 Meditation done, start writing.
2160 Antium founded 5N 1W of Rome (northeast across the river from the top wine) and starts a barracks which it'll need eventually. I set it to work the wine, which will be irrigated for a nice 2/1/2.
1910 Writing done, start priesthood.
1890 I'm not going to get a library done in time, so I'll make a warrior to sit in Rome so I can grow to 6.
1840 Barbs have a city to the southeast on a hill between me and the AIs.
1830 Priesthood done, start CoL for 46 turns.
1710 Rome reaches 6, micro corn to forest. Notice another barb city 5S 1W of rome.
1580 More micro, CoL completion date got pushed up a bit with Antium growing and now working a cottage to so I move one of the Rome cottages to a forest to speed up Oracle completion which is now the limiting factor.
1500 Open borders -> Spain
1350 CoL done.
1330 Oracle done, take Civil Service and revolt. Start Bronze and train 2nd worker in Rome, as Alphabet would be stretching it too far I fear. I have more forest than I like around Rome, and may as well chop some to get infrastructure up quickly.

decided to play it out to 0AD to complete my strategy:

1220 Bronze done, revealing copper in a fairly bad spot - at least I can connect up the marble there too. Switch to slavery, start chopping a library in Rome. Antium reaches size 3, finishes its barracks and starts a settler.
1180 Unusually, a barbarian archer walks right past my sentry on the hill, but loses to the garrison in Rome.
1120 Library done -> worker.
1070 Start monastery in rome.
1020 Cumae founded just north of the copper, its sole reason for existence is to supply copper/crab/marble. It's going to start a boat while Antium makes a settler, meanwhile 2 of my workers are going to get that copper hooked up asap.
990 Alphabet done, start Monarchy. Writing to Gandhi for Polytheism. Switch research from Monarchy to Iron Working as the computer doesn't have iron working yet.
980 Even I won't trade CoL or alphabet just for animal husbandry and hunting, this is unfortunately all that's on offer.
970 Rome builds its monastery and we start a missionary. Convert to Confucianism 1 turn before it grows to 7 (was waiting to see if there were any worthwhile trades available that might have been adversely affected by religions.) Amazingly, I'm worst enemy with Isabella already just because I wouldn't cancel open borders with Gandhi.
940 Isabella demands pottery in tribute. I refuse.
890 Missionary en route to Cumae, start temple, add Scientists in Rome.
880 Lose one of my warrior sentries to a barb archer.
870 Bronze hooked up - and not before time, I hear you say. Chopping another forest at Antium which will get me an axeman once settler is done.
840 Iron Working done, start literature. I note with displeasure that the iron sources are in tundra and desert.
810 Settler done, I think I'll send it 5E/1S of Rome (1 southeast of the iron) to claim rice/iron/stone/ivory, but might need to wait for axe escort as my woodsman 2 warrior in that area is wounded. Rome is generating 56 beakers at 90% sci now to Antium's 6, so I am not concerned about building a library in Antium
780 Woodsman 2 warrior recuperates in Rome, send a regular warrior to patrol
770 Roosevelt plunked a city 6E 3S of Rome claiming the ivory and blocking my intended city site one turn before I get there, having totally bypassed the barbarian city... On the plus side this eliminates the barbarian threat from that direction.
760 I place Neapolis 5E of Rome (just east of the iron) and start a worker there immediately. Axeman 1 heads there, Axeman 2 will guard Rome. Not a great site, but iron is the key.
720 Lit complete. Research monotheism. I can do some scouting with one of my woodsman 2 warriors now that my axes are in place.
660 Monotheism complete, go to org rel. Start mathematics, as no AI even has this yet. Antium will build a granary once its third axeman is done.
610 Great Prophet, this is OK as the shrine will help fund expansion. Temple was done at some point, starting great library.
520 Confucianism spreads to Neapolis just before my missionary gets there, I send it to the American city just south for recon. Maths done, start Monarchy, computer won't trade it.
510 Maths to Roosevelt for Animal Husbandry + Sailing and Confucianism magically spreads to another American city at the other end of the continent.
490 Iron hooked up. Now that Antium is a core city, it will concentrate on training praetorians while Rome builds Great Library. This leaves my resource colonies to do the job of training another settler and worker. I got careless and lost my woodsman 2 scouting warrior, it's not too bad since I've located all computer cities in the jungle.
380 Monarchy done, and going for construction. Bridge building is going to be nice. I'm ahead in score now.
290 Revolt to Hereditary Rule.
200 Construction done, on to calendar, finish great library and start a Barracks.
150 Pisae founded 5W 2N of Rome (on the coast southwest of the cow.) Rome starts pumping out a few praetorians too, we don't need any catapults yet.
50 Calendar done, start currency.


Entering the AD era I have 5 cities with Confucianism spread (10, 6, 2, 2, 1), oracle + great library in Rome, shrine in Antium, 6 workers, 3 axes currently on garrison duty, and 6 praetorians heading to clean out the jungle. It's looking like a won game already. Unusually, my cities have no overlap at all, but that's due to how I placed them to claim resources rather than actually planning it that way.

[Fosse]

I've never tried a CS Slingshot before, and I downloaded the save and had a bad time. I built the city where it stood (didn't even think about the hammer below the city square and couldn't see another compelling reason to move).

I wound up with 2 cities and being beaten to the Oracle by about four turns. I popped maps and some gold, and was so thoroughly overwhelmed by barbarians when the Oracle got built that I abandoned the game.

Marathon is really not very fun for me. I enjoy the early game so much, but turning the pace down so signifigantly really spoils it for me, plus the higher barbarian activity relativly.

BUT... I read the thread afterwards and knew I could do it. I started a new random game, deciding to restart if I didn't get a location that made the Slingshot look like a good bet. My first start seemed good... rice, lots of grass and river and even a bunch of hills. This isn't intended as a threadjack, but after a false start and reading the thread I really didn't feel I could fairly participate, and I wanted to.

Here is that game, and a writeup. I would love feedback from the better players, and would welcome others to play the start I'm providing. (It's Epic, which I like more because it's a bit closer to the standard and I can still feel the long term impact of little decisions... and the early game doesn't take three hours for me to play! )

4000 BC


I decide to move the Settler NW, to save the tree I'm on for eventual chopping, and maybe the land is more productive.



And it is! Look at those hills. I'll get the rice still, so I'm happy. I plant the city and start a warrior and Mysticism. If I'm going to do this kind of start I feel like delaying the first Worker or settler and getting the religion seems the way to go. I'll shoot for Polytheism even though it's a few turns longer, to better my chances of snagging the religion. In the meantime I'll pump warriors to uncover fog and pop huts while my capital grows.

3600 BC
I finish Mysticism. Start polytheism.

3480 BC
Budhism founded by... someone.

2960
Kyoto grows to size three and I switch the warrior to a worker. I'll research Agriculture next, and I want to be ready to farm that rice. I do this now because in a few turns...

2920
Hinduism is founded in Kyoto! I start Agriculture, and get a surprise.... a warrior pops Hunting from a hut. I consider going to Animal husbandry next to know about horses, but opt against it.

2720
Meet Elizabeth to the west.

[b]2440[b]
Agriculture is finished on the same turn the worker is. He moves to the rice and I start on Pottery. I want cottages on this river to fuel the drive to Code of Laws.

2320
I start on a settler now. I have a horde of warriors out, and Kyoto is on pop limits. Plus I've seen something any Slingshot attempt should find interesting... marble!



In deciding on the second city I am obviously drawn to the marble! Yeah... makes a Slingshot that much more likely, since usually I can get COL in place but am beaten to the wonder. I will eventually decide on the eastern tile I have marked, because it means I won't have to build an obelisk or llibrary to hook up the marble. Lots of city spots look temting. YOu can see that rivals are nowhere near me. Liz is just off screen to the west. Cyrus will be found north of her in a few turns, and Monty is way in the SE of the continent. I'm surrounded by lush open land (and, naturally, barbarians).

2000 BC
When I get Pottery I head to mining and start building a cottage. I want to mine those hills, get bronze working and masonry... all before I can finish COL and the Oracle. At this point I start to doubt if I can pull it off.

1600 BC

Work begins on a Worker.

1325
Finish Bronze Working, and start on Writing. The capital is three turns from the granary it started when the settler was finished. I rush that now and the carry over completes a few warriors in short order. Personally, I almost NEVER rush. In fact... this might be the second time ever. I just don't like running slavery, purely as a flavor thing. But it sure is powerful.

800
Writing finished. 6 turns to Priesthood, and the warrior being built in Kyoto gets switched to the Library.

780
Just a look at the barbarians invading.


By the time this wave is beaten (and they are) they've pillaged one mine and killed two warriors. The remaining warriors now have several promotions each.

...

Over the next several turns I finish the library and start the Specialists. I build a barracks and start pumping out 2 promotion warriors, several of which I get a third one for in short order from barbs. I don't have archers yet but with a few Combat II Cover Warriors I'm not too worried about it yet.

740 BC
I finish Priesthood and start on Masonry. I'll get it in 6 turns. I have decided to build the Oracle in Osaka. Partly to keep the Specialist generation "pure" ... I won't have the first Great person until after the Oracle it looks like. Partly because the worker turns to dig the quarry and connect a road to Kyoto seem like a lot. A chop or two in Osaka with the Quarry in place will be much faster than in Kyoto with its higher produciton base.

I am now at: Code of Laws 28 turns. Oracle - 52.

480 BC
Finishing the Quarry makes the countdown: COL - 16. Oracle - 13. I ALMOST started chopping before I realized this... so instead I move some produciton around in Osaka to slow the Oracle a bit, and do the same in Kyoto with research.



COL - 14
Oracle - 18

I have a chop ready in Osaka so I'm not worried about the gap. (incidentally, why worry about that? There seems to be a belief that it's best to finish COL as soon as possible to the Oracle. ideally one turn then the next. Why? Assuming that you get the Oracle as quickly as possible to maximize turn advantage, what's lost by having COL for a dozen turns before the Oracle finishes?)

by the by, Kyoto is working on a Settler. I have tons of warriors already, and feel pretty good about the Slingshot. I'm now looking ahead and filling some of this great land around my capital is going to be a big priority, especially with my soon to be powerhouse capital providing the funds and science for expansion, and courthouses coming soon.

280 BC
I COL in 5. I tinker with Osaka's workers again and now have Oracle in 6. I'm terrified that someone else will build it. I could have finished it a turn or two after hooking up the Quarry (different priorities would have already had me with Metal Casting in that case). It'd take upwards of 50 turns to research Civil Service on my own at the moment.

180
Big Year!

Code of Laws is finished. Confuscianism is founded in Osaka and I start researching Animal Husbandry. Let's see if there are horses for conquering (there is copper North of Kyoto).

In other news, My Combat Shock Raider warriors take Kushans! Things are looking good.

Oracle due next turn.

160 BC
My first successful Civil Service Slingshot. The tech would have cost some 51 turns of research at my current rates.



140 BC
One turn of anarchy later...


you can see that the Great Scientist will be coming along shortly. He winds up coming in 60 BC, and Kyoto is now researching 42 beakers at at 80% (the rate to keep me afloat before. When I go back to the game I'll see if I can put it back to 90).

I'm going to get Alphabet next and see what I can trade for, with an eye towards Metal Casting and Literature. If Archery doesn't come in the trades I'll grab it so my barracks in Kyoto can pump out some city defenders and my awesome warriors can clear the barbs for the tons of cities I tend to put out there.


........

Thanks for the thread that inspired my first CS Slingshot, Vel. Even if it wasn't the same game. I learned and had fun.

[Velociryx]

Excellent work, Fosse! Very well played, and no gold mine, to boot! I'm glad that you enjoyed the thread, and that it inspired you to prove to yourself that you COULD do it! Woot!

To answer the question you posed re: why worry about getting the Oracle finished as quickly as possible after you get CoL, I would say this:

CoL's timeframe is a known quantity....that is to say, at any point, you can look at your research bar and tell on EXACTLY what turn you will finish it.

What turn will the AI finish the Oracle?

Because you do not know the answer to this question, every turn you delay its completion is a turn you may get beaten to it. Further, it's a turn that you're not getting the 50% benefit from Bureaucracy, and the quicker that comes into play, the quicker you reap those powerful benefits. IMO, it's worth nearly anything (pop, chop, whatever) to get that Oracle completed as close to snagging CoL as possible, without happening before, of course.

-=Vel=-

[couerdelion]

Well I thought I would be letting myself down by not trying something of the same and wanted to see the possibilities on Emperor level just to see if it could be done. I cherry picked a few sites before selecting Alexander’s city by the sea as my starting point. The rest of the area was largely wooded hills but the food was to be supplied from clams and fish in the nearby waters and the gold was there for forcing through the necessary techs. Game speed is on Epic for the simple reason that I could not find Marathon – although I expect the latter would be just a little too slow and make the Barbar threat just that little more awkward.

Production in this city was going to be less of a problem and Alex’s philosophical trait made the early academy easy while also speeding up the race to CoL, made all the more important by the high production value of the city.

My own goodie huts gave me first some cash and then a second scout and both got munched by wild animals in the dangerous north-east with one losing on favourable odds and the second caught in an ambush by panthers and lions working as one super-pack.

Alex’s aggressive side of his character also makes the early barbarian threat less worrisome and with half of the squares bordering my city being water, I could leave the city almost unoccupied while reinforcing the garrison protecting the gold. I even through out an early barracks so half my warriors were +25% against archers in addition to their +10 basic. Despite these advantages, I still lost two warriors to a couple of Barbar archers so Alex’s aggression seems to be more than offset by the biased random-number generator. Guess those wild natives need all the help they can get.

In hindsight it looked all too easy although CoL was painfully slow, even with the academy (which I nearly starved my population to force out).

When I finally emerged with my Oracle and very efficient Civil Service, I noticed a few worrying factors – at a time when I should be quite happy. Firstly, my maps are appalling after the early loss of scouts and despite contact with Mali, India and France, I only know the location of Gandhi and his super-speed workers. He has come out of the blocks with a flyer and is charging ahead with points. To compound matters, he planted Bangalore too near the optimal site for a city where my copper would be mined. He also discovers Alphabet early and I begin to worry that my current investment rate and small military tech advantage will be rather short-lived.

I also know that, once I have added pigs to the diet of my citizens, they are still going to find life unhealthy at a population limit of 6 (since the forest-felling basically lost me all of my health bonuses). A long term solution to happiness is just one tech away with Monarchy but healthiness for me is, failing the discovery of more food resources, only going to be available once I discover, through the compass, how to build a harbour. I need to think about this more since the latter is not as serious a problem as unhappiness – in fact I just decided that working the five food fish square is still the way to go because Athens will only improve with workers (healthy or not).

I also notice that the Macemen don’t come free with the CS Slingshot (well it is the first time I tried it).

One area where perhaps I was particularly naïve (this is the first religion that I ever discovered) was that I rushed my first missionary into Bangalore. Now I can see the advantages in checking first if that civ already has a religion. With at least three civs out there and little terrain disincentives to expand then an extra friend will be important. I may have productivity parity (perhaps even better) with them but a war on two fronts will just be too much even for the mighty Athenians.

I think the tech priorities here were Alphabet first and then Iron Working but I decided to go for Iron working to check first for alternative sources of the material. Fortunately it was all over the place and I had some in my expanded borders.

With Alphabet, trading techs were done with Mali to backfill despite being able to do the same earlier with Gandhi. This was for the simple reason that Gandhi is going to box me in while I need resources to feed my super-city.

One thing I found very strange about the CS Slingshot is how to view the massive imbalance that your civilisation has. Settlers or Workers seemed to be there to build because there is nothing better to do. I have, however, noticed that chop building and GP point generation is now more efficiently achieved outside the capital. Slave-driving is something to be discouraged in the capital.

There is also an important decision as to whether the Shrine should be rushed. The city will usually have many more important things to do than produce a missionary but cities will convert. With 4 cities following a religion, the net monetary gain from a Shrine (after allowing for the science multipliers) will produce tech investment of around 10 beakers although you’ll get this anyway in 75 turns (at least with Alex). To speed this up, the temple will have to be built first – OK you’ll probably want this anyway – but after that I would lose a tile producing 0/4/1 for a specialist of 0/1/1 value. Could perhaps give up a food tile and the fish tile of 5/0/1 gives the least loss. This could get the GP arrival down to 35 turns so we gain 400 beakers of tech = (75-35)*10. The loss of production is approximately 30 turns * 3 hammers * 1.5 = 135 hammers or 150 food. I think I have convinced myself that the shrine works with as little as 3 cities following a religion although I may be undervaluing hammers here. Accelerating the shrine will also be mean a delay in sending out a settler but I wonder really if that extra city is all that important.

Still will take a little while to adjust to this strange world I am in.

Oh and I'm pretty sure that I pop-chopped to accelerate the Oracle by 1 turn

[Blake]

I think that after a successful CS Slingshot in a crowded enviroment it's best to beeline catapults and take some cities by force. The AI do a pretty good job of improving them after all.

[Velociryx]

Additonal comments/conclusions:

So we know it works.

We know that Vertical Growth is strong, and has advantages, but what about weaknesses?

Well, some of those (and certainly the most significant one) have already been brought up here, and it deserves some attention.

The BIGGEST weakness of vertical growth is a (relative) lack of production capability. Horizontal growth will FAR outstrip the food and production capabilities of a singular city (if not in raw hammers--tho this is nearly always a given--then by virtue of the fact that two cities can build two things simultaneously, while one city by itself cannot...well, not really (unless you can figure out a way to make them both complete on the same turn, it can't). That's what it (horizontal growth) is designed to do. Take for example the "after" savegame of this set. There's almost no way that you could, from that start, build an ancient age army (praetorians) and dominate the continent. why?

a) your own research will make praetorians obsolete in short order, providing you better alternatives (knights)

b) you still only have one city, and many more will be needed (at least 3, preferably 4) to carry out a continent wide domination plan. The capitol is a good site, but it can't support that kind of empire alone...it'd need AT LEAST one other financial center in support

c) all those new cities are going to need proper garrisons, defense on key resources (your iron is in a bad spot, and exposed to enemy sniping...lose that and you just lost the game)...granaries, barracks, forges (to help offset your weak production and make up the difference)....and all of this before you even THINK about building your first Praetorian.

Nahhh, you could fight a few battles for some modest expansion in the ancient era before the Praetorians are eclipsed by your own better troops, but really, from this point, it'll be Cavalry that'll win the continent for you (which you will get significantly earlier than anybody else, so it's no problem, it's just not ancient era).

So there's that. There's a price to be paid for such exclusive focus, and as Dominae pointed out, a more balanced approach is nearly always superior, but...that would have been beyond the scope of the exercise, which was designed to get you thinking about ONE city, and what you could do with it....how much commerce you could pack it with, how high you could drive its research, and the CS Slingshot, of course.

Once you master it though, very definitely have a look at a more balanced approach. Even one extra city on the board is a huge boost.

-=Vel=-

[Arrian]

By the way, I stumbed on a start last night that blows that one away in terms of research (and, for that matter, production).

The fat cross of Washington (I was Roosevelt) contained (from memory, bear with me):

4 floodplains
Horses on grass
Cows on grass (? - maybe not... I researched AH first for a reason, though)
2 gold hills (!)
1 forest silk (I think it was silk)
2 unforested plains hills
2 forested plains hills
1 unforested plain on river
The rest was grass or forested grass

Here's the kicker: New York, directly to the south, ALSO had two gold hills (both desert, though, so I had to get some farms up before the city could really use 'em). In a word, WOW. Oh, and I have a fifth gold hill to the east.

Of course, I still managed to misplay myself into a difficult situation... I crushed a neighbor (Isabella) who lay between me and the Romans, who hated me. My exhausted, wounded (but technologically superior) army then encountered a massive Roman attack. The first wave looked like something I could handle. But, having lost most of my army killing stacks of Praets, I just saw a stack of ~10 Horse Archers, several WE's, and more Praets incoming. I have roughly 5 wounded units with which to meet them, and all my pikemen have been killed. That's when I saved & quit for the night. I'm curious, when I load it up, to see how well the Romans press their advantage. I figure that if they really go for it, they could gobble up 4 cities from me (all Spanish), including one that I settled my Great Artist in not 10 turns ago (damnit!) before I will be able to stem the tide. I'm hoping they get distracted with pillaging instead, and give me time to pump out some more pikes/longbows/knights/maces/cats. I've taken the emergency step of switching to Police State/Theocracy. I think I might even be willing to meet Mansa Musa's price for his aid (Guilds + Theology, ouch). He won't be able to do much, but maybe the Romans will divert some forces in his direction and buy me time.

-Arrian

p.s. Early in the game, Rome declared on me. They had one axeman roming around my lands, which I killed. We then had a looooong faux war. I never saw another Roman unit. I don't know if perhaps they couldn't get a O.B. agreement with Spain, but I think they essentially spent that entire time building units in "war mode" without being able to send them at me. They're woefully behind in tech/score, but they're #1 in power (I'm #2, but the graph indicates a nosedive as my army has been slaughtered in Madrid).

[fed1943]

Ave atque vale,Velox,great lesson,as usual.
Let´s pretend the goody hut gave,not bronze,but archery;would you build archers or still warriors?
And why not build before you did the road to the gold?
Best regards,

[Ethelwind101]

Thanks again Velociryx for a fantastic thread and I think a very good way to improve our play and see different strategies.
Also thanks to the others who contributed and made me rethink some of my strategies.

I've never tried a CS - Slingshot and usually took a slightly different approch, but no matter what this approach is a lot better than my standard move even though as usual it DEPENDS on the starting location.
It proved to be a fantastic experience, and I think I learned more reading your CS strategy and writing down mine, than I learned about ancient era in all my games (~20) until now. Maybe it just finally went *Click* on some of the deeper effects of Civ4 strategies.

Below my game using your save up to and incl. CS. I was a bit more aggressive and took a risky approach.
It is quite expensive, because I wanted it to be a learning experience for the 'newer' players as well as benefit myself in understanding why I did some things.
It is a slightly more horizontal build with a 2nd city being built and a 3rd planned for sometime after the CS.

Any suggestions/improvements and/or further steps will be gladly taken, as my beginning game usually is okay, but seem to encounter more problems after the ancient era.

************ START OF GAME ************
Note:
- My actions are described 1 turn to late, ie. when warrior ready to move again, worker can start on next field, huts have been visited.
- Had to restart (from 4000 to 3720) because I was playing around with bear to find out when it is defeatable and when not.
- It has been split into 2 mails due to size.

My conclusions: (don't hesitate to disagree )
- Unpromoted Warrior will only win if on defensive tile + must cross river. Otherwise Warrior will always lose. So Velo's strategy was 100% correct. I will flee now and in future games from bears until Woodsman 1 or even 2 promotion exists.

- Use those +75% defense tiles and you will get lucky quite a bit. Around 10-15 animals killed total, 6-8 barbarians (some archers) and no warrior lost. My warriors only defended on good defense spots. I'm aware with a bit more bad luck I might have lost 1-2 of my total of 5 warriors.

- I built a road from/to my gold mine. This road (12 rounds) was a mistake on this map. I should have started on my first cottage instead earlier or started the 2nd mine until pottery was learned. Towns along rivers and resources along resources, don't need roads until the workers have nothing to do.
--> This will save so many turns, this is my first game I really noticed how much difference it would have made. I could have almost built 1 mine more in time it took to make the roads which were completely unnecessary.
--> Mainly this mistake caused me to almost miss oracle! After replaying I won the oracle by exactly 2 turns.

- I built a farm resp. started it, instead of building a mine. This together with the other mistake with the roads cost me 10 rounds longer production of library (if I had not chopped part of it), and thus almost the oracle.
--> CS or probably most approaches where towns and special resources along river don't require roads and production must be up and running once library can be produced.

- Farm seems to be better on plains with (+2,+1,+1), than a cottage (+1,+1,+2) if both are possible because farm will support 1 person, cottage won't.
- Grassland with (+2, +0, +1) with cottage is (+2, +0, +2) seems better than farm (+4, +0, +1), if building a research/food city.

- Marathon resp. Continents seems to be easier than Standard Terra form with 8 civilizations on 1 continent. My assumption with similar resources in such a case I would need to leave out Stonehenge, chop more for Library and Oracle as I need to be there around 1500-2000 BC.

4000
- Started Rome in same location one to east. For a 2nd city I would have chosen one to west of starting position for a bit more production.
- Agriculture is being researched. (One of the first techs, alternatively Hunting, Fishing if those are only special tiles that can be improved)
- Worker is being researched.


3740
- 44 gold found in first seen hut. Never would I suspect that no more huts would be coming my way. Generally I get around 3 huts (1 tech, 1 gold, 1 map).


3720
- Bear moves into vicinity. Plan to flee, as too dangerous without +75% defense.


3660
- Wolf attacks this round and hurts warrior putting him at 1.2 health.
- Bear disappeared into shadows. Phew!
- Warrior will keep moving slowly because of hurts.


3560
- Warrior still exploring northwards and keeps to forest, woods. At 1.2 strength only bad luck or a bear will kill him. Wins 80% of time against wolf/lion.


[b]around 3500[/]
- Agriculture finished. Wheel gets started, next step will be Pottery for the cottage cheese ..err cash.

3420
- Warrior on a hill gets attacked by lion and strength goes to 0.5. Woodsman 1 promotion assigned and health at 1.2. Warrior starts to rest, more animals in vicinity and don't want to lose Warrior.

3400
- Worker 1 gets build finally in Rome.
- Worker 1 moves to Wheat and will start farm next turn.
- Rome starts producing Warrior 2.


3380
- Worker 1 starts building farm.

3340
- Warrior 1 is fully healed and starts scouting again.

3140
- Warrior sees lion in 3160 and gets attacked in 3140. The warrior survives with 1.7 strength.


3080
- Corn processed by Worker 1.
- Warrior 1 meets Isabel of Spain.


3040
- Worker 1 starts building Gold Mine.

3020
- The Wheel is researched, will start on Pottery.
- Warrior 1 detects bear and starts to rest.

2980
- Warrior 1 rested and ready to explore more.

2940
- Warrior 2 finished in Rome and will go explore Southwest of city.
- Rome starts producing Settler (slight digression from vertical to horizontal).


2900
- Warrior 2 is attacked by Panther and survives without taking a scratch. He is now renamed into Panther Menace.
- Warrior 1 after being so succesful is renamed to Obelix because nothing can kill him.

2880
- India is met and they seem to be peaceful for the time being.

2860
- Obelix gets attacked by a lion and is at 1.2 strength. After promotion to Woodsman 2 hes at 1.6 strength.
- Panther Menace is worried because 2 panthers in sight.

2840
- Panther Menace gets attacked by both panthers and stunningly survives both with 0.5 strength left. After upgrading to Woodsman 1 he is at 1.2 strength but will rest for awhile.

2820
- Obelix decides to heal and will go to the east then.


2800
- Worker 1 finishes gold mine.
- Worker 1 starts building road on gold mine. This will give a size 6 city maximum due to +1 happy.

2780
- Obelix healed ready to continue exploring.

2760
- Panther Menace healed ready to continue exploring.

2720
- America greets us and wishes us the best. We return the favor.

2680
- Worker 1 builds road between gold mine and city.

2660
- Pottery is finally finished and we already see the gold flowing like the river through Rome.
- We decide to start research Bronze working. (I'd rather fail Oracle but have bronze working, chopping is so flexible its unbelievable, but I try not to overuse).

2640
- Panther Menace is attacked by panther but survives with 1.4
- First American city found.

2580
- Obelix attacked by panther but not a single scratch occurs.
- Bear close but we will try to evade. Bears are touch and go.

2560
- Gold mine connected to Rome via a Road. It would not have been necessary, because the gold mine is next to river.

2540
- Started cottage in Rome.

2500
- Panther Menace decides to rest as he is close to nature and feels that there might be danger north.
- Obelix looks around sees a bear and moves, suddenly another bear pops up. He decides to run, because 1 bear should be possible with +75 and Woodsman 2, but 2 will kill this fine hero.

2480
- Panther Menace was lucky and thanks to him resting wins against a panther appearing from the mists with 0.6 remaining. He decides to rest.
- Obelix is on +75% hill/jungle and only one bear in vicinity, which will likely attack.

2460
- Obelix feels very lucky in surviving bear with 1.4 remaining and heals as well.

2440
- Settler in Rome completed. We will now be able to expand our empire. We decide that we will found our 2nd city in the north along the river, with sheep and 2 wine and 6 mountains to be worked. We need a production site.
- Warrior 3 started in Rome.

2400
- Settler only needs to move one north, but then a lion will attack before we can build city, so we decide to wait.


2380
- Obelix is healed and can continue exploring. During his exploration, he finds another Amercian city which is very small.


- Settler builds Antium our 2nd city.
- Antium starts building worker
- Antium was chosen because:
a) 6 Mountains in city range!! -> Lots of production
b) 2 Wine + 1 Sheep -> 3 specials is okay.
c) 1 Flood plain
d) connected to Rome via river, no roads necessary currently.
---> Antium will be a production powerhouse, as it will be able to house a large city (towards 20-25). Research will be nice, Gold will be okay.


2340
- Panther Menace is fully healed and starts to explore once more.

2280
- Warrior 3 finished in Rome. Warrior 4 started.

2240
- Obelix sights first Barbarian - an archer - on his continent. From now on it will become much more dangerous, we try to evade as much as possible.
- First cottage in Rome finished.

2200
- Bronze Working is finally finished and shows copper to north west of Rome.
- Slavery is adopted. I rarely use pop rushing but it can help for 1-2 times.
- Writing is being researched.

2180
- Panther Menace is suddenly attacked by barbarian Archer and survives!! with 0.6. Defense tiles for the win :P. Promotion to Woodsman to 1.3 strength and decides to rest.


2160
- Obelix is attacked on 75% terrain and beats the barbarian archer with 1.0 remaining. Decides to rest because another barbarian archer is 2 tiles away.
- Warrior 3 is exploring last hidden tiles NW of Antium and decides to take the safe path via mountains.


2140
- Warrior 3 sees barbarian warrior but is now on a mountain, because I took the careful approach.

2120
- Warrior 4 in Rome completed. He travels to Antium to protect it.
- Warrior 5 started in Rome.
- Warrior 3 fortifies on mountain and waits for barbarian warrior to come.
- Obelix finds first Indian city and can move 1 and then rest even though a barbarian archer is in the vicinity. Thus he can play hide and seek (Woodsman 2) as long as he wants as long as he isn't trapped.


2100
- Warrior 3 defeats barbarian warrior with 0.8.
- Panther Menace decides to rest, as new territory is coming up.

2040
- Warrior 3 sees a barbarian archer appear and starts to run. I'll play hide and seek and rest when I cannot be attacked end of turn.

2020
- Warrior 4 garrisons Antium.
- Obelix is healed and can explore more.

2000
- Spanish town is found.

[Velociryx]

WOW! Holy smokes Arrian...send me that save, if you've still got the game start.....I don't think I've ever played in such a rich starting area! That would rock!

And hiyas, Fed! Glad you liked it!

As to the gold mine, I never did road the gold...no need to, cos it was connected to the capitol by the river.

-=Vel=-

[Ethelwind101]

1990
- Obelix lands next to barbarian warrior at end of turn.

1980
- Warrior 5 in Rome produced and garrisons it.
- Granary in Rome started, which will be postponed when library can be produced.
- Obelix defeats barbarian warrior and is at 1.6 strength.

1970
- Cottage 2 finished by Rome.

1960
- Farm started by rome on plains field.
- Obelix rests again after seeing a barbarian archer in the vicinity.

1950
- Worker was liberated from Isabella, it was just so tempting and will definately hurt her. Her archers will have troubles getting to my town.



1940
- Time for worker to get out and get home to her new city.

1930
- Panther Menace sees barbarian archer and moves to +75% defence tile.
- Warrior 3 has had 10 rounds of running around with barbarian archer and finally can heal more than 1 round at a time.

1920
- Panther Menace wins against barbarian archer with 0.1 left (phew) and decides to heal.

1910
- Warrior 3 is rested, goes to city 2 and will fortify on forest/hill NW of Antium. I hope barbarians come from this direction if at all.

1900
- Writing has been completed. Mysticism is being started
- Rome starts library, putting granary on hold. It will take 68 to build, because currently the city is still growing and is left that way until max happy population reached in 11 turns.
--> Mistake made is that best solution would have been, 2 of the 5 citizens on gold mine and other mine, 2 of them on the forest with 1 food, 2 hammers, and 1 on farm. However i built a road (12 turns), started building 2nd farm (11 or turns), so now best approach is grow, then switch.
--> Calculation now requires 38 rounds for library without chop, if i had done the other way round, I would have had library in 28 rounds without chop.


1890
- One archer from Isabella is heading towards Rome.


1880
- Antium completes Worker.
- Antium starts Library (135 turns, *g*). I will need some chopping here, but lots of hills with forest that will be turned to mines, so no worry.

1870
- Worker creates farm on forest/plains by Antium. This takes slightly longer until chop, but will have farm additionally made.

1830
- Mysticism has been researched. Starting with Meditation.

1820
- Peace made with Isabella as she succumbs to my charms.
- Stolen worker from Isabella passes a new barbarian city just SE of Rome on way to his new home.

1810
- Farm in Rome finished, walking to desert mine.

1790
- Worker in Rome starts building the mine on the desert hill.


1750
- Spanish worker helps build desert mine joining forces with mine and receives his immigration papers for helping.

1740
- All gold has disappeared from my treasury, as each turn cost me 1 gold and I only hat 44 to start with.
- Research drops to 90% due to my financial constraints.

1720
- Meditation has been researched. Priesthood is now started.

1710
- Research set back to 100%. It will last for 9 more turns now.
- On the way back Obelix and Panther Menace inspect barbarian village and see 3 archer holed up. Definatly no chance at getting it soon.

1700
- Desert mine by Rome completed.
- One worker goes to Antium to help there, because the best 6 fields have been setup and size of Rome will not exceed 6 without special happiness.

1660
- Last worker by Rom starts build farm on 2nd Plains field.
- Obelix goes and garrisons Rome.
- Panther Menace is on way to garrison Antium.
- Captured worker enroute to Antium will now process farm on forested plains by Antium. (chop + farm = 23 turns).
- Priesthood discovered


1640
- Priesthood discovered
- Farm in Antium finished and new farm will be made on grassland (without chop), because more growth is needed in Antium.
- Code of Laws started (40 something turns).

1630
- Rome reaches size 6.
- Focus changes from food growth to production for library
--> 26 research and 24 turns of library will now be 20 research and 12 turns for library.

1610
- Barbarian archer attacks Warrior 3 fortified outsiede Antium and survives with 1.8 and continues fortifying/resting. Woodsman 1 is assinged to Warrior 3.

1580
- Another barbarian archer attacks Warrior 3 and he survives again with 1.0, while continu8ing to rest.
- A third barbarian archer attacks Obelix fortified SE of Rome in +50% woods and loses. Obelix has had lots of the special brew and doesn't take any damage.
- Library in Rome would take 9 turns to complete, however rushing it will cause 1 unhappy for 30 turns (limiting size to 5 max). The whip is used and library will be done next round.

1570
- Library completed in Rome.
- 2 inhabitants decide to become scientists.
- Oracle is started (88 turns)
- Code of Laws (36 at 90%, 31 at 100% but -2 gold then currently only 22 gold, so 90% will remain for the time being).
- Great person (50 rounds).

1520
- Rome worker will chop last plains field forest and build farm.
- Oracle (83)
- CoL (29)
- Great Person (45)
- Rome expands so Obelix moves one SE closer to barbarian city and fortifies again.

1490
- Antium farm finished by a worker up there.

1480
- Worker will chop and build a mine on mountain by Antium.

1440
- First chop and third farm finished in Antium.

1430
- Worker starts building road from Antium towards sheep, as Antiums borders should be expanding in about 15 turns theoretically.

1370
- Antium road part 1 finished.

1360
- Worker goes to hill with forest and chops by Antium.

1330
- Library completed in Antium and Granary is started.

1320
- Rome worker finishes Chop and Cottage #3
- Barbarian city grows to 2 but no further attacks yet.
- Oracle (45)
- Great Person (25)
- Code of Laws (9)

1310
- Rome worker chops next forest by Rome.

1280
- Antium Mine incl. chop completed.
- 2nd forest chop completed as well
- Granary in Antium is completed, and a overproduction of 92 hammers remain.
--> This is the point i decided to go for Stonehedge as well. as it would be finished with chopping etc in around 25 turns.

1270
- Worker by Antium finishes chop of forest out of radius of Antium.
- Antium Worker then moves towards Rome to help Rome worker with chop of forest.

1230
- Code of Laws complete.
- Animal Husbandry research started (due to sheep by Antium).
- Confucianism is founded in Antium (oh well, Rome would have been nicer). Free Missionary is sent towards American cities. State religion adopted.
- Rome worker finishes chop of forest by Rome.

1220
- Oracle (18)
- Great Person (16)
- Rome worker starts next chop of forest by Rome.
- Antium worker starts helping Rome worker.
- Slowly getting worried about Oracle being produced by a competitor. 1 chop in 4 rounds would finish Oracle, and I hope its sufficient.
--> My experience is that Oracle is complete by around 1000-1200 if only a couple of civilizations on a continent, if many civilizations exist, then its a lot earlier like 1500-1800.

1210
- Antium finally expands its borders.

1190
- An Antium worker finishes chop and builds road on sheep, because Animal Husbandry sill missing.


1180
- Workers complete chop of forest by Rome.
- Oracle finally built !!!!
- Bureaucracy is selected as Civic.
- Granary will be built as next (its already half built from before the library).
--> Very lucky, i replayed and left out the last chop. Oracle by Isabella of Spain by 1160.
- Civil Service chosen.

1170
- Rome worker starts building cottage on Grassland.
- Antium worker by Rome moves toward Antium and resumes cottage.

1130
- Animal Husbandry researched. Alphabet will be researched as next for Tech trading, resp. at least seeing where the opponents are.
- Horses pop 1 field next to Antium. This improves Antium from a good production site, to a fantastic production site in my oppinion, plus should I decide to go conquer my opponents my options just improved massively.
--> Pure luck and I suppose it will be hard to lose this game. By far my best and luckiest start.


1100
- Granary in Rome completed. Courthouse is started.
- Open Borders with America negotiated so my missionary can pass on religion.

1090
- Forest chopped by Antium by Antium. Worker goes to sheep for pasture building.
- Confucianism is spread to New York.

1080
- Great Scientist appears in Rome and creates an Academy.
- Antium switches to production because Stonehenge finished soon.

1070
- Antium mine + chop forest completed.
- Worker moves to horse.

1060
- Antium worker starts Pasture on Horse

1050
- Cottage 4 by Rome finished.
- Next Cottage by Rome started.

1040
- Stonehenge in Antium finished.
- Courthouse started.




**************************************

State of Civilization at 1040 BC
- 75 Gold with +2 at 90% (-3 gold at 100% research).
- Alphabet completed in 10 rounds.
- 5 Warriors (none lost *lol*), with 2 at 7 or 8 xp with Woodsman 2, 1 at Woodsman 1 with 6 xp.

Rome:
- Size 5, will grow in 14 turns without reallocating resources
- Courthouse in 24 turns.
- 61 research
- Granary, Obelisk, Library, Academy, Oracle finished.

Antium:
- Size 4, will grow in 8 turns without reallocation resources
- Courthouse in 90 turns. Production reallocation sooner or later necessary.
- 6 research only due to growth allocation
- Granary, Library, Stonehenge finished

Further plans
- Finish Alphabet
- Learn Literature and/or Iron Working
- Build Great Library with chop of forest or better with jungle.
- Create a 4th worker and 3rd settler
- Trade for missing techs without giving up Alphabet if possible.
- Go for Monarchy and/or Calendar (for the 2 Incense, 2 Wines).
- 3rd settler to either copper near north or if Iron working then into Jungle south of rome with 3 sugars, 2 silks.
- Build up army for barbarian village which will bring me closer to Isabella of Spain and give me 3 elephant specials.

[Velociryx]

GREAT job, Ethelwind, and an excellent account of your game. Also, that's a strong, strong placement for Antium, since the capitol is so weak production-wise, where it is, so the two will compliment each other very well....lots of "Praetorian Potential" from your northerly city, methinks....

-=Vel=-